Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. I'm Jeremy, I'm Matt. This season, we're going to do some mini-series on some specific topics. Today's episode is part one of a four-part series called Will my Church Need a Transitional Pastor? Over the next three weeks, we will release the rest of this deep dive. This deep dive will look at specific caution signs that churches may have that indicate that they would benefit from using a transitional pastor. The bulk of this content comes from the FAQs that you can find on our website. The caution signs we will look at today are the length of tenure of the last pastor, an out-of-date ministry audit, denominational change and pastoral churn.

Speaker 1: 0:43

As you listen, think about your church. Are we describing your church? If so, and if you would like to talk to us more about the process of doing your own internal deep dive, we want to help you. After you finish this episode, send us an email so we can talk with you. Matt, today we're going to dive in and talk about the question. We're going to talk about this for the next couple of weeks. The question is this what churches should use a transitional pastor? Now, we've already gone over some of these things, but I want to prime you with this question what percentage of churches do not need to use a transitional pastor? Very small percentage. Are we talking 15? Lower.

Speaker 2: 1:22

Yeah, I mean, if 85% of churches need revitalization, then 15% of churches don't need a transitional pastor. And so I think that if 85% of churches need revitalization, it's those 85% that should use a transitional pastor, because a pivotal moment in the life of the church is a transition between long-term pastors, and why not try and move towards greater health and vitality? Why not use the transitional period to move towards greater health and vitality?

Speaker 1: 1:49

Okay, so we're going to look at some of the boxes that you're looking to check. When you answer the question what should a church be looking at to say, should I be looking at using a transitional pastor? Sure, so question number one you have. The pastor has been there for a long tenure, which you define as nine or more years. What I'm trying to wrap my head around is a pastor that's been there for nine plus years should have a pretty solid foundation built. What is it about this particular box that checks something in your mind to say you should really be looking at using a transitional pastor?

Speaker 2: 2:23

I think the thing that is most important to realize about tenure, about pastoral tenure, is, while the most productive years are years 7 to 15, the reason that they're productive is the pastor has the affinity of the group of people that are there. So when he leaves he still has that affinity and they have to grieve his departure. They have to figure out how to effectively separate from him the previous pastor. They need to figure out who they are and this is maybe the most important question they need to figure out who they are apart from him. So people come to me and they're just like, oh, what was the church you pastored? And so I'll tell people churches and they're like, oh, that was Matt's church.

Speaker 2: 3:09

And we very naturally associate churches with their pastors because as much as us as pastors don't really like that, it actually is the case. Just like when you ask somebody well, who's your dad? There's a dad for your family just as much as there is a dad for a church family, and that's typically the pastor. And so there's some degree of separation that's needed from the previous pastor, relationally, emotionally, spiritually, and then some time of just sort of settling in and going, okay, we don't have that dad anymore. Who are we as a family? As we would go look for another dad. Let's make sure that we have a good idea when are we? Are we healthy, are we good, who are we, and what should we be looking for in our next dad? And that's what we're trying to help churches do. Once a pastor has been there for nine years, the church cannot think about itself. Typically, apart from that pastor, they're identified, they're almost as one, and so they need some space and time.

Speaker 1: 4:09

So the fact that a church, that a pastor has done a good job, the fact that a pastor has developed deep, meaningful relationships, has developed a character within the church, is being effective in ministry, is following the call of Jesus, that the church is following the call of Jesus to that church. The fact that that's happened well, you're saying is in fact a reason to say we really ought to consider using a transitional pastor.

Speaker 2: 4:38

Yeah, absolutely. That's exactly why, Except in one case, there are a couple of churches and I mentioned this before but there are a couple of churches that we've worked with where that pastor who was there, the first pastor that was there was the founding pastor, and the reason that it can work well is those churches tend to have only had one stable identity and vision and they're still clear on it, and so if they're healthy and they're clear on who they are and where they're going, they have a good sense of their health and they actually are ostensibly healthy, then it can be okay for them. There are 15% of churches that don't need a transitional pastor, and that's definitely one of those cases.

Speaker 1: 5:20

But the bottom line here, from where I'm sitting, is you're not saying fundamentally, you're not saying a church should do this, because a church that has been going for a long time is, by definition, doing poorly. You're saying that there are realities of living, realities of developing characters and patterns that should be assessed. Yes, not because you've made missteps, but because you've stepped strong. It's like moving from one weight machine to another using a different set of muscles. Absolutely, you need to know where you're strong so that you don't pull a muscle when you move from a lat pull to I don't know, fly something. Blah, blah, blah muscles.

Speaker 2: 6:02

Right, Absolutely. I think too. I think of the analogy this way I heard of a widower, a man, who lost his wife and she had always done everything related to the kitchen. She'd done the cooking, she'd done the dishes, and after she had passed away, he put himself through the discipline of learning everything that there was about the kitchen so that he could function on his own. He was a contained unit, he was a whole person before he went looking for another relationship. That's good, and so I think that analogy is you have had this one pastor and he's functioned in a certain way and he was a church that functioned in a certain way under that pastor's leadership, and that's been good and fine. But it's super important that you would take the time to step back and evaluate and get some space and figure out who you are and where you're going before you go looking for another pastor, Okay.

Speaker 1: 7:03

Second, question then figure out who you are, where you're going, before you go looking for another pastor. Okay, second question then you mentioned in your literature that a ministry audit in a church that is more than three years old been three years since the last ministry audit is a good reason to look at a transitional pastor. Number one what's a ministry audit? Number two why is a more than three-year-old ministry audit a checkbox for you?

Speaker 2: 7:25

I think one of the things that COVID taught us was that we tend to work along the same assumptions unless they are challenged, unless there's a reason that we have to start looking differently at assumptions, and COVID made people overnight begin to inspect their assumptions about why they did things and what purpose they had, and whether they were absolutely necessary or not. So when churches came back from COVID, they took the opportunity to say no, we're not going to restart that. That did make sense, but it doesn't make sense now. Well, why wait for a crisis to do that? Churches actually ought to think about that over and over again. We teach churches yearly strategic planning and we encourage them. Put everything back on the table. There are radically few things that are required by Jesus for a local congregation to do. Most everything that we're doing, that we're doing as a church, are the results of previous choices that can be re-examined, and we have permission to re-choose, and so maybe we should.

Speaker 1: 8:31

So, besides the Frozen Chosen, do most churches actually do ministry audits? I understand, the Presbyterians really like reports. Absolutely yes, the Presbyterians really like reports. That's absolutely yes, Presbyterians really like reports.

Speaker 2: 8:46

So I think that ministry audits are actually always happening, but they're happening accidentally and they're happening unconsciously.

Speaker 1: 8:55

But they are always happening. I would agree.

Speaker 2: 8:57

Right, when you cannot get volunteers for a ministry, a ministry audit is happening. I would agree. When you cannot get volunteers for a ministry, a ministry audit is happening. Absolutely. When somebody says we should start this, a ministry audit has happened and the conclusions of it have been drawn and a suggestion is being made as a result. So a ministry audit is actually always happening. The question is, is it intentional and thoughtful, and are the leaders, the ones initiating it, holding things?

Speaker 1: 9:24

loosely. So, matt, help me understand this. What is a ministry audit? Just break it down for me.

Speaker 2: 9:29

Here's the goal of a ministry audit. A ministry audit is trying to look at the answer to the question is what we are doing, accomplishing what we believe that Jesus has called us to? Okay? So if our listeners might be familiar with the book Simple Church and if they're not, they should be Okay. So Simple Church is a Tom Rainer and Eric Iger book. It's gone through multiple editions and an anniversary and a re-release and it continues to be as good as when it started. And really their focus is trying to help your church seriously evaluate.

Speaker 2: 10:06

Are we actually making disciples? Jesus' call to us in the Great Commission is go out into the world, teach, baptize. Why? Because we're in the business of making disciples From people who rank unbelievers right now. Our call is to try and make maturing believers out of them. That's what local churches, that's the business local churches are in. And so what Geiger and Rayner are trying to help you do is say is our church intentionally built around actually reaching and maturing disciples? And so the way that they help you try and look at that is do we first have clarity? What are we trying to do here? Do we have clarity about what we're trying to make? We have a sheet that we make available to people that we use in a church that I pastor. That's called Made Disciple.

Speaker 2: 10:57

Jesus says make disciples. Well, does your church have a clear idea of what that is? If you guys made a disciple, what would that person look like? What would they be like? So, do we have clarity? Do we have alignments? Um, so, are our ministries aligned around actually making those disciples right? Do we have focus? This is what we're focused in on and this is the focus actually of our ministries is to make these kinds of disciples.

Speaker 2: 11:23

And then, are we measuring the movement? See, a healthy church is measuringa. Healthy church measures things like have we seen any converts this year? Right, any baptisms of adults that came from unbelief to belief? Right, we expect our kids to come to faith? Right, because they're under the preaching of the gospel in our homes and in our churches. But do we see new unbelievers from the community come to Christ? So, healthy churches are looking at that because they're praying for it and they're working towards it right.

Speaker 2: 11:50

But the other thing that they're measuring is are people actually making progress? Sure, can people look and see this disciple's more mature because of the ministry of our church this year than when they started and are lots of people seeing that? Okay, so a ministry audit to loop back to the original question that Jerry asked forever ago a ministry audit is trying to look at all of the ministries of the church and is trying to say are they, do we have clarity about what we're trying to get done here? Are our ministries aligned to that clarity? Okay, are they helping us achieve the focus that we've got as a church and are they producing movement in our disciples? That's what a ministry guide is trying to do, and what are we doing?

Speaker 2: 12:29

that's not and what are we doing? That's not. Where do we?

Speaker 1: 12:31

have flab that we can cut.

Speaker 2: 12:34

And can we just say this isn't accomplishing what we want it and just call it what it is, even if people love it, but it's not actually accomplishing what we're trying to do when?

Speaker 1: 12:43

When you do that, you can honor it, you can honor its legacy, you can honor its impact.

Speaker 2: 12:47

And then put it to bed.

Speaker 1: 12:48

Yeah, absolutely, and say this was a part of, and God was faithful, god worked with us, it was meaningful. We're not doing it now because we believe that there's a new field that God's called us into, whatever that might look like, and give it the honor that it deserves, and then put it up on the shelf where Jesus has called you to put it, instead of holding on to it and be like, well, no, we did this for 30 years, so we're still, you know, just going to drag this behind us. The tire's flat, but we'll keep on pulling this wheel, darrell.

Speaker 2: 13:17

We'll keep going whomp, whomp, whomp, whomp as the tire goes right flat One of and doing that well, what Jared just described.

Speaker 2: 13:26

Doing that well is super important Because sometimes people in churches can think because they were well-intentioned and this is ministry they can think well, if we stop doing something well, that's an implicit critique of me, that's correct, or it's an implicit critique of the idea when we started it.

Speaker 2: 13:43

That was actually a bad idea at the start and it's absolutely not Missionaries, and this is super important. If you've not listened to our podcast over time, you'll hear me say this time and time again the primary lens that we need to use in local church ministry is that of missionaries. That's what a transitional pastor is trying to help you do is help you regain that missionary posture as a church missionary in your community. Missionaries are always looking to the fruit that they hope to bear and being willing to change the way they're going about the task of the Great Commission to bear the fruit that they're praying the Lord would bear through them. And if people have that heart, they're like, hey, if it's not bearing the fruit, let's be done with it, let's lean into something else that might bear that fruit, okay.

Speaker 1: 14:31

I'm glad you said that, because this gives me the opportunity to say we will link to previous episodes that you've done that touch on these topics here in the show notes. So if you look at the episode notes, if you want to learn more, there will be resources below. For the sake of time, let's move on. I might actually drop one question out. We'll see. Next question, though, is this you put as one of the checkboxes the church seeking to change denominations is a reason to consider transition pastors. Number one, that's a foreign concept to me. How many churches are there that are looking to switch denominations?

Speaker 2: 15:10

Yeah, I don't know how many there are, but it's phone calls that we get. Sometimes I will bring it up to a church when I hear their story and I'm just kind of like, is your denominational home the right one for you? And I'm the one who will bring it up. And many times they've kicked it around, they just haven't mentioned it and sometimes that's because the denominations change. Sometimes it's because the church has changed.

Speaker 2: 15:32

There's a lot of reasons that churches consider changing their affiliation might be a broader way, because even a non-denominational church sometimes will be in a network or some kind of affiliation or grouping or fellowship. Or there's lots of different labels for collections of churches we might say is the broadest category collections of churches. Here's the reason why this is important. One of the fundamental tasks that's been recognized for 50 years in transitional ministry is that one of the opportunities for a church in transition is to actually rekindle its ties to its affiliation. And so if that's one of the fundamental tasks that ought to be done, if you've drifted from it and you're trying to, and the right thing to do is to renew it, then that ought to be done, because if you've got an affiliation, lean into it and use it. It's there for a reason, right.

Speaker 2: 16:19

However, sometimes the reason that people need that affiliation to be rekindled is because they've actually drifted from it, and it was actually a good thing that they drifted from it. I think about the churches right now where the United Methodist Churches come down in a particular spot and there are churches that are overtly disaffiliated. It was good for them to rethink it. Some have reaffiliated more strongly because they agree with the decisions that have been made, and others have said well, it's time for us to disaffiliate and to do something else, and so if a church is seriously considering that, it is way better to do that in transition than it is to try and bring in a new pastor and then drop on the new pastor. Hey, so actually, the affiliation that just approved you to come here, yeah, we'd like to leave that. That commonly does not work all that well. I can see that.

Speaker 1: 17:13

So let's lean into that one a little bit. Last question for this episode. But one of the marks that you, one of the boxes you look to check, is where a church has what you call lovingly Pastor Churn. Yeah, what is Pastor Churn and why is this one? Probably one of the most obvious signs.

Speaker 2: 17:30

Yeah. So, Pastor Churn is, if the average tenure of a pastor in America is five years and your church is one that gets a new pastor every two, three, four years and you've got a cycle of that, you're a church that churns out pastors, Shoos them up and spits them out, where they never actually get to the most productive years, which are years 7 to 15.

Speaker 1: 17:58

Is that?

Speaker 2: 17:58

specifically lead pastors or does that also relate down to associate pastors or other pastoral staff? It's for sure, lead pastors. But certainly a health sign for us is that if a church continues to turn over staff and the lead pastor stays, that typically tells us something actually about the health of the lead pastor.

Speaker 1: 18:10

Okay, so in this case, unless your denomination's norm is to change pastors every 24 to 36 months, if this is what you're looking at in your church number one, let's just be honest churches that do in fact find themselves in this position. I can't believe that there are many churches over, say, 70 people where this is going on. Now, I might be surprised about that, but this is one of those red flag kind of things where these others aren't necessarily red flags. This one in particular should really stop and say what's going on here, what's going on either in our process or who we are, how we see ourselves, how we're hearing Jesus, how we're following Jesus, that we have this high rate of turnover and I don't want to make this too business oriented, but in the same way that a business would look and say, if we have a really high turnover rate, maybe there's something wrong in the way that we're walking through this together. Any final thoughts before we close this one out?

Speaker 2: 19:15

I think that's pretty good. I think it's very sad for a church to turn pastors. The only times when I've seen when people are not sad is when people's posture is well. We've seen a lot of pastors come and go. They come, they go, we stay, and they're really sort of stuck in their ways and they're okay with it, and that is actually a sign of a very unhealthy church.

Speaker 1: 19:39

Yeah, Well, on that happy note, we will see you guys next week. Thanks for coming by. Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawned, jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy.

Speaker 1: 20:14

If you have questions or a need, we'd love to hear from you. You can find us at flourishcoachingorg and you can reach us by email at info at flourishcoachingorg. You can also connect with us on Facebook, twitter and YouTube, and we would love it if you would like subscribe rate. You can also connect with us on Facebook, twitter and YouTube and we would love it if you would like subscribe rate or review the podcast wherever you're listening. Please share this podcast with anyone you think it'll help and if we get a client because of a recommendation you make, we'll send you a small gift just to say thanks, and a special thanks to Bay Ridge Christian Church in Annapolis, maryland, for the use of their building to record today's episode. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal Podcast was produced by me, jeremy Seferati, in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you.