Jeremy: 0:02

Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. I'm Jeremy, I'm Matt. Here's an obvious question If I need a new lead pastor, won't using a transitional pastor slow down the process of finding the new guy? If you weren't thinking about this question, I bet you are now, so we're going to try to answer that question today. If, as we're talking today, you have other questions that you want us to answer, please drop us an email to info at flourishcoachingorg after you listen to this episode. Welcome back to the Church Renewal Podcast. Today, we are going to be discussing the question of is it going to slow us down to get through this transition period if we're using a transitional pastor? And it seems to me that the patently obvious answer is yes, it will slow us down. So maybe that's right, maybe that's wrong, but, matt, what is the? What's the answer that you give? Why should, if it's going to in fact extend our time to fill in the pulpit successfully, why should we be considering a transitional pastor?

Matt: 1:03

so I would say that the answer the question will getting a transitional pastor slow down. I would say that the answer to the question will getting a transitional pastor slow down. The pastor search process is both yes and no. Okay. So yes, it will slow you down because you're going to have some preliminary phases to go through before you actually get to the pastor search proper. So you're going to go through church health assessment phase, which is three to four months. You're're gonna go through church health assessment phase, which is three to four months. You're gonna go through the envisioning phase, which is three to four months, before you get into the pastor search phase, which will run from maybe month seven or eight until it's filled. So that's the yes. It will slow you down. However, here's the no.

Matt: 1:39

In my context, the Presbyterian Church of America takes 18 to 24 months to fill a pastoral position. Most transitional pastors are on the ground 15 to 24 months. So yes, you're going slow in the beginning, but it enables you to go fast at the end, which we can link to a business article about that or the book, because I think that that's what we're trying to do is, we're trying to go slow so we can go fast. And so what we find is, by the time you get to the pastor search phase, things actually go really quickly because you've dealt with your stuff and you can represent yourself well in your what we call lead pastor packet, which is your advertising piece that you use to solicit candidates for your position, and if candidates can see that you've done the work and that you know yourself, they're going to be excited to apply and you're going to get higher quality candidates, and sooner, because it will be obvious that you've done the work okay so there's an upside and downside.

Jeremy: 2:39

What? Do you have any idea what the average search time is if you don't use a train? How long is the average transitional time if you don't use a transitional pastor? 18 to 24 months and if you do 15 to 24 months? Interesting, so it can slow you down a little bit.

Matt: 2:58

But the upside is you're not having to repeat it in two to three years yes, yeah, and so you don't have the price of a bad hire, which is incredibly difficult. So you know if you, dear listener, are in the child of divorce, which too many people are, but if you're the child of divorce, you know how disruptive that was when your parents got divorced. Well, imagine your parents getting divorced and then, three years later, your parents, your new parents, your mom gets remarried and your new parents divorce three years later. What does that feel like? It's horrendous in the emotional system of the church, and so what we're trying to do is slow down, yes, at the beginning, but then the time frames are very parallel, or perhaps even slightly quicker, and most certainly better if you use a transitional pastor and a thoughtful transition process what's the longest you've ever seen the transition process take with a tp either yours or a guy working right now, um, and the plan is for this one that he's in to work 18 to 24 months.

Matt: 3:59

I think his last one was two and a half years. Okay, so they can't go that long. It kind of depends. You know, one of our board members did a transitional pastorate at a very difficult church I think it described it in another episode in this season where the church had been 2000 and went down to 200. And he was there a bit over two years. So it can take a little bit longer than that, especially in those most severe situations. But it can also go really quickly. If the church is leaning into the work, it can go very quickly. As quickly as we can pull it off, the church can lean into it. If the church leans into it, it can go more quickly.

Jeremy: 4:34

In a scenario like that, where you have significant work to do during this transition period, is it possible to quickly move through that? Well, like, like if we're, if we're talking about a church that has, you know, we've the trope is the pastor runs off with the elder's wife or with the secretary and clearly, in a situation like that, typically there have been signs that have been ignored, there has been a failure of accountability.

Jeremy: 5:03

There's been a failure of leadership, blah, blah, blah, yep, yep. Multiple things. All those have to be addressed, yes, in order to get to health. Yep, they're very difficult, they're very painful, they're very embarrassing. They require a change of heart and a change of direction. And I guess my question you're answering it, but I want to hear more is can you move through that with rapidity and intentionality? Well, or is this one of those things where, if it's really severe, you're looking at multiple months in the hospital to get to recovery. You're not looking at an overnight stay in the ER?

Matt: 5:41

You're absolutely looking at multiple months in the hospital to get to recovery. There's just no way to recover, particularly because pastor's currency is trust and in those situations you have no currency. You almost have to invent a new economy in the emotional system of the church, and that just takes time. There's just no two ways about it, just takes time. I have a no two ways about it, it just takes time.

Jeremy: 6:04

I have a friend who is known to say trust is the coin of the realm.

Matt: 6:11

That's a good line.

Jeremy: 6:12

Yeah, I'll introduce you to him. Good, dr Quick, we got to get you on here.

Matt: 6:15

Absolutely.

Jeremy: 6:18

Okay, so you've talked about the cost in terms of length. Are there other costs besides the financial that we haven't talked about? With using a transitional pastor, it can be a few more months, it can be longer, depending on the health of the church, as the temporary pastor finds it. As you go through the health assessment, are there additional lag times that a church might or should expect lag times that a church might or should expect.

Matt: 6:45

I think that if you have had a severe situation happen in your church, you should just assume that it's known. Okay, some churches try to hide the difficulties that they've had, and that is always a mistake.

Jeremy: 7:03

Church people never put on their Sundayay best, not not exactly, and it's um candidates.

Matt: 7:08

No, candidates are smart candidates. Particularly in the market that we're in right now, candidates can choose to be discriminating and if they pick up that you've not dealt with your stuff, they're they're going to shy away from you. But if you've done the work and your reputation has changed, because they're like this church is leaning in, they're bearing the US additional costs. I think one of the costs it it's you bear the cost of taking the time and space and opportunity to be willing to be conformed to christ, and that is not quick and it's costly. Jesus is the one who said you know, if you want to follow me, I'm all for that, but uh, this means that you need to take up your cross daily. So it's sacrificial and a lot of American Christians are just not used to their walk with Christ being sacrificial.

Jeremy: 8:12

It is scary to recognize that God was willing to pay the price of having his own son sacrificed in order to bring a people to himself through adoption and reconciliation. It should be scary, possibly terrifying, that if God, who was willing to lay down the life of his son, to do that, what of mine? Is he not also willing to sacrifice, like if?

Matt: 8:43

he's willing to lay down the life of his son. Yeah, to make me like his son.

Jeremy: 8:47

Yeah, what of mine? Is he willing to say no, that's on the table, I'll take that. I will destroy that in order to get this done.

Matt: 8:57

What is he doing in all those letters in the New Testament? If you imagine the situation that Ephesians comes into, the galatians comes into, the corinthians comes into.

Matt: 9:09

If you imagine the colossians which is more parallel to a lot of what happens now. If you imagine those situations. What is jesus heart? Well, his heart is for his people that he died for, to the saints at right. That's the that's jesus heart is to the saints at. So I adopted one. So the ones that I laid, my dad laid my life down for right, but he can tell them that they're foolish and and carnal and that they're, you know, keeping up the dividing wall between them and others. And so if you feel like, oh, man, we're such a messy church no one's going to touch us, oh, I think you're dead wrong. Jesus touched all those messy churches in the new testament and he said here's what it looks like to believe the gospel and to live out the implications of it. And you can be different by the power of the spirit. We've seen churches reputation radically shift because of their willingness to be honest. Can I tell a story?

Jeremy: 10:06

You're stepping all over my last question, so go ahead. Okay, sorry, no, no my last question was this what's the most surprising thing you've found, tied into the length of time, that you've placed a transitional pastor, and it sounds like that's where you're going.

Matt: 10:20

Well, this one's actually a change of reputation and it sounds like that's where you're going. Well, this one's actually a change of reputation. So we worked with a church where the reputation of the church was that it was proud and that it was stayed. I know you can't imagine a Presbyterian church being stayed.

Jeremy: 10:37

I'm doing my best. He's doing his best.

Matt: 10:40

I'm trying to picture him. And so what was? The Lord just worked in a very surprising way in this church. It was marvelous. I can't even describe it to you.

Matt: 10:50

All we did was show up and pray and teach them how to follow the process that we gave them, and all I can tell you is that the Lord worked, and he worked in such a way that when this church put out its lead pastor packet for candidates to begin to evaluate and look at, they had a candidate email them and say hey, I saw your packet. My wife and I don't sense that Lord's calling us to move from where we are, but I just wanted to let you know I have never seen a packet like this before, where a church was actually honest, and I think that even churches whose reputation has been sullied for whatever reason, if they're willing to be honest, candidates will give them a shot because they can see that the Lord's at work if they're willing to be honest, to humble themselves and be honest. It's marvelous. I can't even describe it to you how marvelous it is.

Jeremy: 11:46

The choice of your word there is striking me because of the tie-in to Isaiah. The stone that the builders rejected has become the cornerstone, and this is marvelous in our eyes.

Matt: 11:59

Yeah.

Jeremy: 12:01

I love that. I love that. There was one thing I wanted to go back that you said that I wanted to touch on. Oh, you said it's a buyer's market right now Yep. It's a buyer's market, which means there's a lot of fish in the sea.

Matt: 12:13

So there's, there are more positions than pastors. That's across the national uh, you know ties and things like that, and so the pastors who are looking for work can afford, can choose to be discriminating, and so they are. And how do you distinguish yourself as a church that is attractive to candidates? Do the work and demonstrate it, and if you do that, candidates will look at it and they'll go. I'm willing to look at this church because they're dealing with their stuff and that's an environment where I can come in and I can lead and pastor people with their stuff and that's an environment where I can come in and I can lead and pastor people.

Jeremy: 12:45

Well, lord, protect us from becoming the church that has arrived, and thank you for your grace that you are at the process of redeeming the people to yourself and change us. The humility that is required of all believers, and especially of those who will lead God's people, is the door through which overwhelming grace can come in and flood over a people. Having experienced that grace, it's something that I am very passionate about other people experiencing as well, so thank you for sharing.

Matt: 13:29

Welcome.

Jeremy: 13:30

Thank you for coming with us, listener. We have more to come, so please stay tuned. We will be back in your ears very shortly. Bye-bye.

Jeremy: 13:39

Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that, this day dawned, jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy. If you have questions or a need, we'd love to hear from you.

Jeremy: 14:05

You can find us at flourishcoachingorg and you can reach us by email at info at flourishcoachingorg. You can also connect with us on Facebook, twitter and YouTube, and we would love it if you would like subscribe, rate or review the podcast wherever you're listening. Please share this podcast with anyone you think it'll help and if we get a client because of a recommendation you make, we'll send you a small gift just to say thanks, and a special thanks to Bay Ridge Christian Church in Annapolis, maryland, for the use of their building to record today's episode. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal Podcast was produced by me, jeremy Zaffirati, in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you.