Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. I'm Jeremy, I'm Matt. In today's episode, we're bringing you the first of a two-part series called Vetted, trained and Coached. In this deep dive, we're going to unpack the process that all Flourish coaches go through in order to be ready and able to guide your congregation through the transition process to find your new lead pastor. If you're interested in finding out more or in talking with us about becoming a transition pastor with Flourish, we want to talk to you. Shoot us an email at info at flourishcoachingorg, and we'll connect. Well, hello, dear listener, and welcome back to the Church Renewal Podcast. I am Jeremy and I'm sitting here across from the table, across the table, actually, from Matt Bolling. Matt, how are you?

Speaker 2: 0:46

All right, how are you?

Speaker 1: 0:48

Wonderful. That walk in the sun was really good. It was really good, that was really really good. So today we're doing the humanity, oh the humanity, part two, and we're going to be discussing the wife of the transitional pastor, and we're going to be discussing the wife of the transitional pastor, and because God is gracious and all-wise.

Speaker 2: 1:13

This episode will be dropping on All Saints Day. That was almost funny Because your wife has to be a saint in order to let you do this crazy thing we call transitional pastoring.

Speaker 1: 1:25

Hello, hello, all seriousness, to be a saint in order to let you do this crazy thing called transitional pastoring. Hello, all seriousness. Uh, let's just come out the gate with the easy, with the, with the real one. What is the cost to the transitional pastor's wife?

Speaker 2: 1:34

I think this is another uh, it depends. So if, uh, the transitional pastor is doing this as geographic bachelor, where she's uh sometimes accompanying him but perhaps that's rare, or more rare, but not they haven't picked up sticks and moved there together as a couple, then she's at home manning the fort many times because the income is not secure, perpetual for the transitional pastors. Their wives are working, they have jobs doing stuff, or if it happens to be that they're, they're working some and there's still children in the home, it's a greater burden for them to carry to keep the home operating in the absence of their pastor husband, their transitional pastor husband. If they are picking up sticks, then that's a hardship because they're leaving home and the regular fellowship and people at the church that they normally go to and they're going someplace else and transplanting which is its own, wearing experience, to just go move somewhere else for a period of time, and so it takes someone who's flexible and is willing to do that. I think in either case, if you were to ask my wife about the experience that I had as a transitional pastor, she would say we've never talked so much about church stuff because there's so much to process and you transitional pastor.

Speaker 2: 2:53

Typically marriages are we pray good. The wife is one of the critical ones that they process with One of the guys that works for us. He and his wife are the pick-up-sticks kind and move to a new place and they're working at a church right now and together they do these structured interviews of people. I have them for coffee and spend 45 minutes or an hour with them and ask them you know, what do you think of the strengths and weaknesses of this church? Or what do you think of the opportunities that are out there for us to move towards, or what are some threats to the health of the church? And they do this together as a couple, and so the wife is carrying some of that appropriate burden and pain that we're called to in Romans 12, right To rejoice with those who rejoice and to weep with those who weep.

Speaker 2: 3:38

And so there's some emotional cost and relational cost that you're really applying couples applying themselves in an intense way for the sake of this church, and so that's costly. I know there's some pastors that they're able to do it. Their marriages are created in such a way regular pastoring in a church where the wife's been doing her own thing and the pastor mostly operates on his own and they don't talk that much about church stuff. That can be for a variety of reasons and that's a fine construction. There's not something that's wrong with it when you're a workaday pastor in a church, but in a transitional pastorate there's a lot to process, and so I think I have found it incredibly helpful to be able to bounce things around with my wife.

Speaker 1: 4:20

So it's not just the separation, it's not just like going away on deployment and being on a sub for six months or nine months. Right, it is carrying the burden, the spiritual burden, the emotional burden for people who are in crisis, who are hurting, who are grieving, who are being reproved.

Speaker 2: 4:37

They're anxious, they don't have a pastor.

Speaker 1: 4:38

Yeah, yep, all of that and you carry all this and you're being looked to, rightly or wrongly, as the person who's going to bring them through the wilderness.

Speaker 2: 4:50

Yes, and I think that that's for pastor's wives. I know that my wife I love my children, I'm glad for them, glad for the years that we had with them at home and raising them. She still thinks about our kids, grown as they are, more than I do, and so I think that for the wife you have, for most people in this age bracket, the kids are raised right and they're out of the home and they're on their own. They're either single and working, they get married, they're beginning to have grandchildren, you know, and so you're kind of in two brains at once, and so that is its own kind of rigor, I think, for the transitional pastor's wife.

Speaker 1: 5:29

What specific challenges are unique to the marriage that the TP and his wife share?

Speaker 2: 5:38

I think that it's maybe the same sort of temptations that are there pastoring, but in an amplified form, because the environment is more intense. So I think that for the guys that we have they're all men they're going to a congregation of both mixed men and women, so the temptation to infidelity is always there, and so staying close sexually, I think, is super important for a couple. My wife and I take that very, very seriously, and I do even in the way that I keep my boundaries and things like that, because I think it's super important. And that's particularly the case of your geographic bachelor. Right, it's maybe an uncomfortable topic for some people, but I'm telling you that it's important, right.

Speaker 1: 6:20

So I think that I just want to underscore that what you're saying is a part of your mentoring and coaching of the TPs is are you satisfied?

Speaker 2: 6:28

in the bedroom, I'm saying I do that always with pastors when I coach them, because I think that that's if you are not paying attention to your own marital relationship that finds its expression of passion and joy in the bedroom. That's a problem and we have to pay attention to it.

Speaker 1: 6:49

There are a lot of great podcasts on the sexual relationship Generally not pastors talking on them, right? So maybe there's an opportunity here, pastor, wink, wink, nod, nod, get more engaged in the game, anyway, okay, so is there a personality? You've talked about what you're kind of looking for in the transitional pastor. Are you looking for something specific, or are there specific warning flags that you'd be looking for with the spouse?

Speaker 2: 7:21

Yeah, so I think that there are akin temptations, but I think that they're felt differently than the spouse. So if the husband is commonly a warm, fuzzy, pastoral type this is what I've seen a warm, fuzzy, pastoral type tends to be married to more of an actual factual wife. So if you have a you know who's maybe more process-oriented or, more to the point, more direct, and that in a healer-type situation I think can be actually good because they make a great pair. It can be really helpful for the husband who is facing a difficult conversation and that's not his greatest strength to have a wife there. That's just like okay, let's think it through, I'll work it with you. I know you care about people's feelings and that's really important, but this conversation needs to happen, happen. So let's pray together and let's think through how to do it right, and so she's a great partner in that.

Speaker 2: 8:16

I think that the the non-attachment to people if the pastor is more of an actual factual like me, right, they're more process oriented, they're more goal oriented and, um, my wife has more persisting relationships with people in the churches that I pastored than I do Because she is the more warm fuzzy of the two of us. My wife can make a tree talk. It is her second nature to make people feel comfortable For somebody like her. I think a challenge could be for somebody like my wife. Now I did this geographic bachelor so this wasn't a challenge for the church that I was the transitional pastor of.

Speaker 2: 8:53

But when the main goal is not new long-term relationships with people in the church, I think that can be painful. It could actually feel transactional for someone like my wife and so that's a danger you just sort of have to insulate yourself from. These are temporary friends. Some of them, a few of them, may end up as long-term friends, but they're temporary friends and you kind of have to constitutionally be okay with that, know that going in and not be overly hurt that they're temporary friends so in some ways again I'm here in maryland, where we're surrounded by military right I hear a lot from the military wives about what it's like to be a military wife in base housing.

Speaker 1: 9:32

this is temporary pastor wife and temporary pastor wife housing, yep. Except instead of being surrounded by other military wives, you're surrounded by either your home church or your family or your support network, which in some ways, can insulate you from the critique or the displeasure that the congregation may be experiencing towards your husband, which is something that I think a lot of pastor's wives do have to face and deal with. On the other hand, it also leaves you feeling undernurtured, underfed, underconnected, isolated.

Speaker 2: 10:16

Yeah, you said something a little bit earlier that I think is super, super important. You said support network, and I think that that is an absolutely essential aspect of doing this kind of work, for both husband and wife. I think the husband needs that concentrated time to be able to talk to his wife and bounce things around. She needs the time and space and to have a network that she connects to to support her. I provide, or we provide as an organization, me in terms of coaching the transitional pastors. We provide support for them, but I fully expect that transitional pastors got more counselors than me.

Speaker 2: 10:58

I may be a wise counselor, but I'm only one wise counselor and many times we need multiple ones and in various situations. One of the great gifts of my life is that if I'm facing something, I go oh, you know this guy that I know I bet he'd have wisdom. I'm going to reach out to him, and so having that ability to reach out to a network I think is is really critical. I'm privileged to be on the prayer list of a guy who's a transitional pastor. Okay and I think that's also an essential thing is to have a group of people who you're close to and that you trust One of the guys that I have his prayer network and the guys in my roster. One of his prayer network is made up, to some degree, of people in previous churches where he's worked who know the rigor of the work and they know the challenge of it.

Speaker 1: 11:41

And they're really and have demonstrated the care for him.

Speaker 2: 11:43

Exactly, and so I think having a prayer group some of the guys just organically who are in this in the PCA world just collecting themselves into a peer group, and of the guys just organically who are in this in the in the PCA world just collected themselves into a peer group and they talk once a month Right and I think that that's also a very important kind of thing is that you have the support that you need for a very challenging task.

Speaker 1: 12:06

If they're PCA in the South, that peer group probably meets at the peer. It was a bad joke. Sorry, that was a bad joke. Sorry, that was a dad joke. I don't apologize for that. I have earned the right To say dad jokes. Yeah, yeah, practically. How long of an absence does a wife experience from her traditional pastor husband?

Speaker 2: 12:32

If he's doing geographic bachelor, yeah, yeah, so it's a, it's another, it depends. So I have a guy right now that that I've recruited and helped to place him in his next position. He's, uh, finishing up a transitional pastorate. That is a two and a half hour plane flight away from um his wife, and so she's made arrangements with her job where she can work remote one week, so she's a week with him in Florida. He's a week a month back in New York where he lives, and they're completely apart for two weeks, other than phone calls and FaceTime. That's about the pace that I worked at when I was working at the church where I was a transitional pastor, where I'd come to the site twice a month and for most of that time I'd come twice a month and then be other places. For me it was other places. That was a time of life where I was traveling about 70% of the time, which was insane, and I'm glad that it's over. So I think that it's a big. It depends If you're. Is that two weeks like the lower range, mid-range, upper range? I think that's probably in the neighborhood.

Speaker 2: 13:35

I think for guys that are geographically based and they're working, it's more of a hardy. Part-time is what I would call it 66%, something like that. Two-thirds of the month they're working. They're doing these long four-day weekends, so they might leave their house early on Friday. They're to the site by lunch on Friday. They work through the weekend to maybe lunch on Monday or dinner on Monday, and then they drive home and they sleep in their own bed.

Speaker 2: 14:03

We're really with their spouse Monday night, tuesday night, wednesday night, thursday night, so four nights in their bed and then they repeat it. They repeat the cycle, and so those gaps are much shorter. And so that's attractive to, frankly, a lot of the guys that I'm trying to recruit and to a lot of churches, because it makes it more affordable and it makes it more humane, and so those gaps are very short. There's another organization that this is a model that they use when the guy's a plane flight away where the guy will fly in and say a saturday, um, he'll preach that first the next day, sunday, but then not just that sunday but the next two, so three sundays in a row, but then fly home on sunday afternoon or monday morning, so it'll be on site for maybe um 16, 17 days, something that, but then home for 13. Okay, and that's that same three-in-one kind of cycle.

Speaker 1: 14:58

Okay.

Speaker 2: 14:58

And so I think that it can be any of those varieties, if they haven't picked up six and moved to the site.

Speaker 1: 15:04

How do you, as the executive director of Flourish, keep your finger on the cost to the wife of the TP?

Speaker 2: 15:18

Yeah, it's primarily so. I do two things. One is I make visits. Anybody that I coach, I make visits. I want to see their, I want to meet their spouse, I want to see how they're doing, and so, to the best degree that it's possible for me, I want to try and do that. I want to lay eyes on them and see how they're actually doing, and so I try and make a site visit. Anybody that I'm coaching, including your additional pastor. I try and actually visit on site with them once a year and ideally that also involves the wife. But I'm also coaching the pastor and I'm asking him the first question anybody who knows has been coached by me.

Speaker 2: 15:50

The first question that I ask in any coaching conversation is how's your life? And that's purposefully broad, because I want to see the first thing that comes into his head and see what's going on. And so I'm trying to ask the guys who are working for us you know how's things in your marriage? How are things going? Is this working for your wife? What kind of support you know? So I'm trying to be there for them, just like I would be if I was coaching a pastor, because I think it's Cazaro that says yeah, it's Cazaro. He says Pete Cazaro. We can link to this that pastoring finds its good pastoring finds its fruits, finds its first impulse in the joy and the enjoyment of your own marriage, and so you minister. The way he puts it, the simple is you minister out of your marriage, and so if we don't pay attention in the marriages of the transitional pastors, then that's putting the whole thing at risk. That's what we're trying to do. Jeremy's currently writing, so we don't forget to actually link to that Scazzaro piece.

Speaker 1: 16:59

That's right. Hopefully you can hear that writing.

Speaker 2: 17:01

Sounds like this Scritchy, scratchy, scritchy, scratchy, scratchy, scritchy. And thankfully his son has his decoder ring for the mostly blind guy to be able to actually read his writing.

Speaker 1: 17:12

Yeah, Sharpie on legal pad without being able to see what I'm writing. A lot of muscle memory and prayer. Um, I Think this is the last question for this episode, which is fine because we already have 15 minutes. What is the most surprising feedback that you've received from the wife of a transitional pastor?

Speaker 2: 17:33

Hmm, I'm gonna have to sort through some rolodex cards. I think one of the most surprising I guess I'd put it this way the instincts of our wives because of their relational intuitiveness, is super important. So when I talk to a wife of one of our, I'm thinking of a conversation I had with one of our transitional pastors' wives when I was visiting their site. Her just sort of looking at me very seriously and saying so we had this conversation with this person and I was picking this up seriously and saying so. We had this conversation with this person and I was picking this up, and I think that that ability to intuitively pick up on stuff that is non-obvious is critical.

Speaker 2: 18:31

Even though I did Geographical Bachelor, my wife came with me a time or two to where I was working and her insights were money, they were absolutely money, and so I think that the feedback is universally. This is hard, this is challenging, it's the hardest thing that we've done. So I think that that's sort of universal but not surprising. But I think that the surprising is kind of the pickups on pain and a relational strain. Maybe after we do this somewhere I'll have more stories like that.

Speaker 1: 19:04

I hope not. I'm sure you will.

Speaker 2: 19:07

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:08

I was going to end with that question, but let me throw this one at you. Um, your ride cannot be with us for this recording.

Speaker 2: 19:15

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 19:15

However, you've known her for a long time. If she were here, what advice would she give to either a prospective transitional pastor or to the wife of a candidate that you're about to place?

Speaker 2: 19:33

Yeah, I think, particularly because we face the geographical was, we had to work hard because your daily contact is a phone call or FaceTime right, and some texts and maybe an occasional Hail Mary phone call. You know we had a leak or whatever. I need your help right Is carving out dedicated time to stay connected, out dedicated time to stay connected. I think that's the biggest advice that she would give is that we had to work at that and she would say that is just because we've got. Julian and I have known each other for over 30 years.

Speaker 2: 20:09

We have a good relationship.

Speaker 2: 20:11

But despite all of that, gotta carve out the time, particularly if you're geographic, I think that if you're in the mix of it all the time, and my wife, uh, we run this tension now because my life as executive director is exceedingly busy and I'm juggling multiple situations at once coaching transitional pastors, coaching pastors, I dialoguing with prospective clients right, so I'm juggling 35 things at a time, literally juggling 35 things at a time. Sometimes my wife and I just have to say, all right, we're done talking about work, let's talk about what we're going to do this weekend, let's talk about our son's wedding and what our hopes are for that, or our daughter, and make sure that we're aligned on calendars so you can be at her next gymnastics meet. And so I think that that, while I think the transitional pastor needs his wife as a substantive dialogue partner, they need more than dialoguing about the church. For the relationship to be happy and fruitful and be able to bear up over doing this more than once, there's got to be more to them than just this work that they're doing.

Speaker 1: 21:33

Well, I haven't met your wife. I'm looking forward to hopefully meeting her sometime.

Speaker 2: 21:37

Me too.

Speaker 1: 21:38

She's awesome. I do wish that. This is particularly important to me because I care for my bride very deeply. I know the burden that she has carried through my time serving as a pastor and in ministry and I know my heart's, my heart's, my wife's, she's my heart. I know my wife's heart, or the women who serve behind the men that God has called to lead, and I want to do everything that I can to um not just highlight but give voice to the burden that they are carrying Because, much like motherhood, it is an absolute labor of love.

Speaker 2: 22:25

Absolutely, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 22:26

For sure. I don't think enough can be said about them. So yeah, it wasn't a bad dad jokes about All Saints Day, but I was actually tickled when I saw it on the calendar and I said it is worth saying thank you. So, to all the wives out there who back up a pastor, who back up a transitional pastor, thank you, thank you. Thank you very, very much, matt. Thank you for this time. Quite welcome. We are so over time that I'll just stop here Bye-bye.

Speaker 1: 22:54

Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. Flourish Coaching. Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawned, jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy.

Speaker 1: 23:17

If you have questions or a need, we'd love to hear from you. You can find us at flourishcoachingorg or you can reach us by email at info at flourishcoachingorg. You can also connect with us on Facebook, twitter and YouTube and we would love it if you would like subscribe, rate or review the podcast wherever you're listening. Please share this podcast with anyone you think it'll help, and if we get a client because of a recommendation you make, we'll send you a small gift just to say thanks, and a special thanks to Bay Ridge Christian Church in Annapolis, maryland, for the use of their building to record today's episode. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal Podcast was produced by me, jeremy Zaffirati, in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you.