Speaker 1: 0:02

Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. I'm Jeremy, I'm Matt. We've dealt with a lot of heavy issues so far in Season 3, so, as we come around the final bend, we're going to take a breather and recover a little, and we're going to start by talking about the Sacred Assembly. If you haven't heard of this concept, or even if you have, we're glad that you're listening. Now. Join us as we talk about the power of God's kindness that we can experience as individuals and as a church in the Sacred Assembly. Hey, matt, welcome back to the Church Renewal Podcast. Hey, jer, how are you? I am wonderful. It's great to be sitting across from you. I'm glad that you took your chair. I don't know where you took it, but I'm glad you took it.

Speaker 2: 0:41

I took it back actually. Well, that's good. I've been outstanding actually before.

Speaker 1: 0:46

Yeah, this has been a long. This has been a bit of a marathon recording session. We've been going since quite early this morning, not super early, not like up with the sun. Jesus was walking with the Father in the cool of the morning, kind of early, but certainly early enough that by this point I'm tired and maybe you hear it in my voice, maybe that luster, that chipper sound that you're, that you've come to expect is.

Speaker 2: 1:08

Chipper is the word I would have used for sure. Well, thank you. Yes, chipper I I try I want to be honest. I try well. I zippy is what I say about myself. I'm not quite my zippy self more like ippy.

Speaker 1: 1:21

No, take a step backwards and it becomes yippee, yippee. That's good. This is a lesson on how to ruin a podcast. Intro, matt. Today we're talking about sacred assemblies.

Speaker 2: 1:33

Yes.

Speaker 1: 1:34

Which is a term that you tried to come up with, and if I'd known that maybe I would have given it to you earlier. Maybe I wouldn't have. I can't say.

Speaker 2: 1:40

But I didn't, I didn't think of it. It's hard in a podcast to go line yeah it really is. You can't really like the other guy's not reading your mind, so we're working towards it, but we're not there yet.

Speaker 1: 1:50

So help me out. What is a sacred assembly?

Speaker 2: 1:53

Yeah. So a sacred assembly is a in the context of a transitional ministry. It's a gathering that a transitional pastor may lead a congregation to undergo, and it finds its root in the Old Testament. Let me read this from Ezra, chapter 10. When Ezra prayed and made confession, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, a very great assembly of men, women and children gathered to him out of Israel. For the people wept bitterly and Shekiniah, the son of Jehiel, of the sons of Elam, addressed Ezra. We have broken faith with our God and have married foreign women from the peoples of the lands, but even now there is hope for Israel in spite of this. Therefore, let us make a covenant with our God to put away all these wives and their children, according to the counsel of my Lord and of those who tremble at the commandment of our God, and let it be done according to the law. And it goes on.

Speaker 2: 2:50

So a sacred assembly is a particular. It ultimately ends up in a service, but there's much preparation before and there's follow on after. But the concept is that where there has been particularly fractured relationship, where there's been sins against each other, where people have been up to this point unrepentant, where the congregation is or the elder board has been fractured, a staff public confession is appropriate to be made and the opportunity for people to, like the Israelites did in Ezra 10, come together and confess their sins and make a new covenant along the line of what would have been their membership vows in the local church that they've been breaking. And so they're coming back and saying we made these vows to our God and we broke them, and so we're going to come back and we're them, and so we're going to come back and we're going to confess, we're going to repent and we're going to re-covenant with the Lord.

Speaker 2: 3:51

And these can be the Sacred Assembly in the context of a church transitional period can be one of the most marvelous experiences that a Christian can ever have, because rarely do we make the space we should more, but rarely is there a space made that just says okay, everybody pray.

Speaker 2: 4:14

What it is that you think you need to confess? Who's the person in church that you avoid? Maybe you had a bump with years ago and you've never really dealt with it. Hey, you elders, you get to be the chief repenters here, you get to lead in this, you're the first people to get to talk about your sins, but everybody is prepared, through a process, to come humbled and ready to own their sins, to seek forgiveness with each other, reconciliation with God and man, and it can be this most marvelous, marvelous thing for the healing of a church that needs healing. One of our churches need healing post-covid, if there's even people still in the church that weren't so at odds with each other that they just simply left yeah, so the purpose for the sacred assembly, for calling a sacred assembly, is not just to call for repentance or confession.

Speaker 1: 5:17

It is in fact to work through repentance to reconciliation. Yes, within the body, yep, and as a church before God.

Speaker 2: 5:25

Yes, and I think particularly where there's been. The only thing I would add to that is that sometimes the sin is among the members and it's the opportunity to try and bring members together that have been on different sides of things, and sometimes it's with the leaders and the members and sometimes it's a combination of all of that. But the idea is that if you have a group that is not at peace, it's very difficult to lead them out into the spiritual battle if they themselves as a group are not at peace. They're, if you look at it, from the perspective of a sheepfold, a group of sheep inside of a pen. They're unsettled, they're jumpy, they've got cliques and they're not yet ready to follow a new shepherd because of the unsettledness of the flock.

Speaker 2: 6:16

And a sacred assembly is one of those things where we're just kind of say, okay, can we help the flock get settled? And that is almost always through the door of repentance and forgiveness and apology. So even one of the things I run into sometimes in the church. I remember I worked with a church where, as I got to know them better, I'm like you people don't apologize around here, and it was so striking to me. I'm a person that makes a lot of verbal gaffes. At least once a week I need to go back to somebody where I've said something and I regret it later and I go back and I address it. I'm just like you know, I was thinking back over our conversation and I just, yeah, I wish I wouldn't have said it, or I wish I wouldn't have said it that way.

Speaker 2: 7:03

It wasn't even necessary to be said at all, and I'm really sorry.

Speaker 2: 7:07

And if I've sinned against them, I want to own that it was sin and just say you know, I'm not only sorry, but I repent to you and to the Lord and I'm asking you to forgive me, please, and so I.

Speaker 2: 7:22

There are churches and there's one that I'm thinking of right now where there were mistakes being made all the time by all kinds of people, but they were too proud to go back and admit that they'd made a mistake. And there are tons of times in human relationships where you couldn't have known how somebody would react to something that you said. You bore the fruit of the Spirit towards them, the best that you knew how you said something, and the Lord is not upset in the sense that you sinned. You bore the fruit of the Spirit towards them, the best that you knew how you said something, and the Lord is not upset in the sense that you sinned against the Lord. But the Lord could get upset with you if you know that your brother has been offended. It's a very interesting word in the Scriptures. Your brother's been offended, you hurt your brother and yet you're going well. It's kind of like that conversation, the prototypical conversation you had in the counseling room with somebody that's kind of like my wife shouldn't feel that way.

Speaker 1: 8:14

I'm sorry if you feel that way.

Speaker 2: 8:15

I'm sorry if you feel that way.

Speaker 1: 8:16

I'm sorry if I said something that made you feel that way.

Speaker 2: 8:20

I think that we can get into places where elders say things that they didn't know were going to hurt somebody. It wasn't said maliciously, it wasn't because they had an axe to grind and they were mean. Now, when it does happen, then you need to, you know, repent and ask for forgiveness. But there are so many times where if we honestly come and said I had no idea, by saying that that that was going to hurt, was going to hurt you I would never want to purposefully hurt you.

Speaker 2: 8:46

I'm so sorry, and what I find when I do that with people is that they're blown away, that I'm willing to humble myself and admit that it was my fault that they were hurt, and rarely, rarely does somebody go well, okay, well, I'm still not talking to you. Very rarely does that happen. Most people are blown away that you'd care enough and there'd be a lot less problems in churches if people didn't get. We're recording here near the Mason-Dixon line. But one of the sayings they have in the South is people get their back up and the picture there to remember is something like an Arkansas Razorback right when they get that grizzly fur up on their back. They curl their back and they get it up and they're producing distance right Between them and somebody else. And we'd be in so much better shape in so many churches if we just could be willing to humble ourselves and just say I'm sorry that I hurt you. I would never do that on purpose.

Speaker 1: 9:53

Okay, you have answered all the questions that I prepared for this episode already.

Speaker 2: 9:57

Congratulations, Matt Exactly. That's what you were trying to say. Those were the words. You were looking for Congratulations.

Speaker 1: 10:03

Well done, thou good and faithful podcaster.

Speaker 2: 10:07

Thank you, I think the words you were looking for were you're welcome.

Speaker 1: 10:12

Just to take it back Choose one One, choose one. I think that went back to differentiation. Anyway, we're getting ahead of ourselves here. So there's a couple things I'm thinking about as you talk about this Sure One. You used two words that we've talked about already Pride and humility, and it strikes me that Peter, I think, was being really clear when he said confessor James, I'm sorry, was being very clear when he said confess your sins, yep, wail, lament, mourn, for God resists the proud, but he gives grace to the humble going to peter yeah yeah, I I it conflated, so I conflated, sorry, which is it's good, good biblical teaching it is um.

Speaker 1: 10:57

it also makes me think that in any case, where you have relationships that require reconciliation because of sin or because of offenses, whether they are real or perceived, but there's been real injury as a result, yes.

Speaker 1: 11:15

That is a case where, in probably 99 out of 99 cases, proper church discipline and I don't mean correction, I mean what's described as church discipline in Matthew 18 hasn't been walked out. And what scripture lays out is not just if you have an offense towards someone, go and be reconciled, but Jesus in two different passages, and I don't remember them off the top of my head, matthew 5 and Luke 17.

Speaker 2: 11:43

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 11:45

Says if you're bringing your gift to the altar and you know that your brother has an offense against you, leave your gift to the altar, go and be reconciled and then come together and bring your gift to the altar. He also says if you are offended at your brother, go and be reconciled. He gives the same instruction to both parties, the offended and the offender. He doesn't leave it to say well, I'm the offended party, so I'm going to wait for someone to come and tap me on the shoulder and recognize that they wronged me and come and say I'm so sorry.

Speaker 2: 12:21

I have no obligation here because I'm the offended one. That's correct, right? Yeah, the ideal is that. The way that I've put it is that when you combine those two passages matthew 5 and luke 17 that if you imagine these two brothers living in the same village, they meet each other on the path to each other's houses.

Speaker 1: 12:36

yes, this is a venn diagram that is jointly exhaustive and mutually exclusive. All the same time, there's nothing not in here.

Speaker 2: 12:44

Exactly. So if you're in a sacred assembly, the ideal is, if there's two people at odds for whatever reason, however the offense happened or whatever that they meet in the middle aisles. They both make their way out of their pew or their row to go talk to each other. They meet in the middle aisle. That's what so beautifully happens sometimes when the Lord works in a sacred assembly.

Speaker 1: 13:03

So what kind of groundwork do you? You said rarely when you go to someone and say hey, I was not aware I did that wrongly. I absolutely understand why you were offended. I am so sorry. Rarely do they turn around and say I'm not talking to you, right? If they do, it's likely because this is not the first time you've said this to them, nor the second time or third time or fourth time that you've done this same action towards them. But there's probably some other breach of trust that has built up because of a behavior pattern that doesn't match your verbal pattern at this point.

Speaker 2: 13:49

It can certainly happen that way, for sure, and that's a different matter to try and deal with. I'll come back to it in a second. Sometimes it is the first time, and I think that sometimes it's the first time and it was the only time and you have someone who is a um, they store up offenses, and that is who they are as a person. They store up offenses against multiple people and that is their mo, and they style themselves as superior and above everyone else, and so they can't afford to release you from the obligation that they have over you because they they need to think of themselves as a bigger person, as a superior person to other people. So sometimes you can do all that you can to clean up your side of the street and the other person will not meet you in the middle of the street. Absolutely, guys. And so I think that's why Paul says I think it's Romans 12, as much as it depends upon you, be at peace with all men.

Speaker 2: 14:47

And I think there's a recognition there that the way a counselor put it is that you're responsible for your side of the street If you have, authentically and truly and you're the only one who knows that if you've gone up and you've done what you can to clean up your side of the street. Now you've bounced the ball and you need to see if the other person will bounce it back. If it is the case that you were pointing out a little bit earlier where you've had this pattern and you don't have works that have met with your repentance, use the old translation for the Acts passage and somebody's like yeah, yeah, I see your gums flapping, but I don't see your life changing. Then you've made it harder for them to actually forgive you Because you said please forgive me, asking the Lord to help me be different about this, and I'm really working on it, but they can't see that you're actually working on it.

Speaker 1: 15:36

You're saying please forgive me for stealing your wallet while my hand's still in your back pocket.

Speaker 2: 15:41

Right, yeah, and you're making it harder for someone to actually forgive you because you're doing that. I think that the other reason is we are. This is a newer area of thinking and study for me, so I'm going to say something that could sound judgmental, but what I want to say is the Lord's been growing me in this. I'm reading and writing more about this and it's becoming a greater part of our practice as a ministry. Okay, so I'm, I'm, I'm in process on this, um, but uh, I think it's incredibly important. But I think it's incredibly important. Let's say that after this podcast episode, we're going to wrap up and I'm going to go have dinner with Jer and his family and say, over dinner, I've never met Jer's wife before. I'm going to meet her tonight. Say, over dinner.

Speaker 2: 16:26

I say something that I think is just something flippant and funny, and I didn't mean anything by it at all, but Jer's wife, hannah, takes it as very unkind. Now, I didn't mean to be unkind, but she took it as unkind. Who's right? Hannah is right, because most, all of the fruit of the Spirit in fact, I think all of them them are how you are experienced by somebody else. So, if Hannah experiences me as unkind. Whether I meant it or not. Intent and impact, as one elder taught me, in this realm are very different things. I could not have intended at all to be unkind, but if the impact of my words were unkind, guess what? I was unkind. That's how Hannah experienced me, and this is something that I find as I work with churches that people are radically underdeveloped in being able to have conversations like this, where elders are like we told you that we were going to have a transitional pastor. I know it's been six months since we've said that, but we told you six months ago and people are just like you left us in the dark. We're like no, we told you we were going to do this, and they're like no, our experience of the last six months was you left us in the dark, and elders sometimes can feel and I think, christians in general but I find this with elders particularly related to communication, where there's kind of like I said I loved you once, why do I need to say it again? And they're not realizing. Okay, whether you meant it or not, that's how you were experienced and we don't have the. I think it's a mature. I don't know what label you'd give this, jeremy, but I think it's the maturity, the humility, the patience and really I think it comes down to a security in the gospel. There it is. So let's play out our theoretical scenario here that I really actually hope doesn't happen.

Speaker 2: 18:30

But I never want to be perceived as unkind to people but say it does happen and Jerry and I get together tomorrow to do a recording. I never want to be perceived as unkind to people but say it does happen and Jared and I get together tomorrow to do a recording and Jared's like you know what you've got to call Hannah. You really pissed her off last night. I know you didn't mean it. I know between two guys that comment wouldn't have meant anything, but she really pissed her off. Now I have two reactions when I have that opportunity, if that were to happen. One reaction is just like she shouldn't have felt that way, she shouldn't have been able to receive that. It's just me being funny. I'm not going to call her. She can get over it. Or I can say well, crap, that's certainly not what I meant. I would never want to hurt somebody the first time I ever met them. Of course I'm going to call her. Can I call her before we get started and that's me going towards her, and that's what happens so infrequently in churches.

Speaker 2: 19:27

And when that piles up over time in multiple relationships in the church, and particularly between leaders and congregants, then you end up in a place where you need a sacred assembly, and a sacred assembly could be as much apologies as requests for forgiveness.

Speaker 2: 19:42

For sure, because people are mistaken all the time. They don't know how they're always experienced, no matter how careful they are, they don't know that their experience is not bearing. The fruit of the gospel towards someone, the fruit of the spirit towards someone, flows out of their own security in the gospel and you don't know unless someone tells you. And so there can be fault. Actually, on both sides of an unreconciled relationship it's like well, I'm not going to tell him he should have known that he was unkind. No, I'm a bozo. There's no way I could have known that I was unkind and I need you to have the security in Christ and have the courage to come to me and just say hey, matt, that really hurt my feelings and give me the shot to say I'm sorry and that happens too little in churches, and Sacred Assembly allows for lots of that.

Speaker 1: 20:33

You used the term security in the gospel several times. The word that kept on coming to mind as you were talking was fear. Fear is the thing that holds us back from pushing in and saying, yeah, you're right, I did do that. That was my action, that was not what I intended, and the fear there is that if I cop to that, I'm going to lose some sort of collateral with you.

Speaker 2: 20:56

Respect.

Speaker 1: 20:57

You've already lost. I've already broken trust. Now, accepting the fact that I broke trust, I'm owning that and that's going to mean now I'm validating your lack of trust in me. Okay, number one, if I expect your trust in me to be in my record of doing well, number one, I've already lost the plot, yep, and I'm already looking to myself, not Jesus. My hope is that your trust in me as a leader, as a husband, as a father, as a friend, is based on the fact that there is one who stands at the right hand of God, advocating on my part, because he already covered my sins Preach, and he is faithful to cover yours.

Speaker 1: 21:37

Absolutely and he's going to work reconciliation between me and his father and he's going to work reconciliation between you and I. If I'm afraid of that, I don't have that security in the gospel, and that's where I need to go to, and so I was going to ask the question, but I'm not going to. We're already way over time here, but this is a really important topic, one that clearly I'm very passionate about, and I make no apologies for that, although maybe I should Well played. Why is it not good enough to simply have a repentance service and then come to the Lord's table? Because repentance has to be given to someone.

Speaker 2: 22:12

Yep.

Speaker 1: 22:14

And forgiveness has to be received from someone, and I tell my kids this and I will tell this I don't know if this is actually an original to jeremy, but it's one that I don't know if I heard anywhere else. The two most powerful and beautiful statements that you can ever hear or say are please forgive me and I forgive you. They are absolutely the most freeing things that you can ever give or receive. Fear that we will be rejected because we are broken is what would stop us from doing that. Yep for sure. The gospel of Christ says yes, you are, you are broken, you are wrong, and I've covered it, and I am righteous and I've given you my righteousness. So come and join me in the relationship.

Speaker 1: 23:14

I think the concept of a sacred assembly is one that Dr Quick talks about in Healing the Heart of your Church.

Speaker 1: 23:24

I don't know if he uses this exact title, but it's one that, when I first started reading the work that he was doing on this, it stood out as being something that is very much missing, and very much missing in a church, and I'll say this, too, if you grew up in a home where your father, or if you grew up without a father, if your mother did not model this kind of approach, to say I'm sorry, please forgive me. It's going to be very hard to do it as a leader in a church, right? If your church leaders struggle to do this, it's almost guaranteed that their fathers did not do this for them. Now that means that there's a father-son reconciliation story that Jesus is at work bringing about, and what this gives an opportunity for the Holy Spirit to do is to actually heal that hurt that they have, that they don't even know they're bringing to this, that has inflicted the congregation with pain that he's also going to heal at the same time.

Speaker 2: 24:32

That's what we pray for.

Speaker 1: 24:34

That's what we pray for. Yeah, there's a lot more that we can get into here. I'm sorry to steal the mic.

Speaker 1: 24:42

I really I strongly and highly commend this to you, Listener. This is what it means to walk in gospel grace Absolutely and trust that Jesus is our total sufficiency and you can never go wrong standing on those promises. Thank you, Matt, You're welcome. Thank you, listener. We will talk to you soon, Matt, You're welcome. Thank you us on Facebook, Twitter and YouTube and we would love it if you would like subscribe, rate or review the podcast wherever you're listening. Please share this podcast with anyone you think it'll help and if we get a client because of a recommendation you make, we'll send you a small gift just to say thanks, and a special thanks to Bay Ridge Christian Church in Annapolis, Maryland, for the use of their building to record today's episode. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal Podcast was produced by me, Jeremy Zaffirati, in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you.