Speaker 1: 0:04

Welcome to the Church. Renewal Podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:06

I'm Matt. I'm Jeremy.

Speaker 1: 0:08

Healthy church leadership is not the same as controlling results. In this episode, jeremy and Matt explore what it means to be differentiated from outcome, how pastors can remain faithful without tying their identity to ministry results. Drawing on biblical examples, family systems theory and practical coaching insights, they highlight the dangers of control, the freedom of intentional faithfulness and why entrusting outcomes to God is essential for resilience in anxious church systems.

Speaker 2: 0:38

And welcome back. So, matt, we spent the last episode talking about what it means to be differentiated. We're going to talk now about, you know, we're sort of a second deep dive into what it means to be differentiated from outcome, which is something that, as far as I'm aware and as far as you're aware, is a piece that you're bringing to this picture that hasn't been thought of or presented this way, and I think it's very worth talking about here. Um, as we talked about in the last episode, you, you talked about the story with your son and his accent. Right, what it made me think of is a coach college. Whatever you think of your favorite coach, there's several things that go into being a good coach. One is you're willing to push your players not to damage them, but there's a difference between being hurt and being injured. Certainly, your players are going to hurt and they may even get injured Not catastrophically, obviously. That's the desire, but there's a certain amount of no pain, no gain that a coach must be comfortable with, with.

Speaker 2: 1:44

Otherwise he will be an ineffective coach and absolutely both in terms of his the, the impact he has on the lives of his players, but also on the scoreboard, right. And so the second part of being a coach here is the coach can't actually get out on the field, right. He has to sit there on the sidelines, give directions, give the players the freedom to listen to, not listen to those directions, make a call on the fly, be able to trust them to take what he's given to them and run with it, while not being able to step in and say wait a second, that didn't go right, let me do it again.

Speaker 3: 2:20

Let me show you how to do it. Hey ref, can we run that back and do that play again?

Speaker 2: 2:22

Let me show you how to do it? Hey, ref, can we run that back and do that play again? And then there's a third part where, regardless of what happens, he's going to stand at that podium during the news conference immediately after that loss.

Speaker 2: 2:34

A loss that's on his record. It now directly impacts him. It directly impacts his ability to get that head coaching job that he wants at that bigger school. Whatever it is right, right. And he has to stand there, give an honest, objective report on what went well, what went wrong, not throw all of his anxiety about what needs to change onto the reporters, because that's not theirs to bear right, not air his grievances about how his players responded, because that's not appropriate and that's sabotage. But he stands there, he talks honestly, confidently, knowing that, even though the loss that's just been marked up is going to go onto his personal ledger, it doesn't define who he is. What defines who he is is how he leads now in light of it. So, with that as sort of my that's what I was hearing, as you were talking about differentiation and I think this ties into and leads us into differentiated from outcome, especially in that third part Tell us about how you came to this idea of differentiated for outcome and what that means.

Speaker 3: 3:46

Yeah, so my sense of differentiation is that we mostly apply it in relationships with other people, and I think it's incredibly important and it's an area for most pastors to grow, and for 75% of pastors, it's the way that they do need to grow. They need to grow in their differentiation from people so that 75% of pastors are externally driven. Their temptation is towards people-pleasing. They go into a room, they have their kind of shrimp feelers out in front of them, they're trying to figure out what the expectation is and then to live in light of that expectation, because it tends to draw people-oriented people, and so that's the dynamics that they need to work on. There's 25% of pastors, though, that are more like me when I was a pastor, which is that was not my temptation.

Speaker 3: 4:36

My temptation was not to be a people pleaser. My temptation was to have certain goals and outcomes that I wanted to have happen, and if they happened, I felt okay about myself. Just like if a pastor goes into a situation and the people walk away pleased with him, he walked away feeling okay about himself. If I tried to lead in something and it went well and we got to the outcome that I wanted not the people outcome, but the goal outcome. It happened the way I wanted it to right. The change happened whatever. Okay, then I would feel okay about myself. But what happens when that doesn't happen? What happens when people don't think that it's a good idea?

Speaker 2: 5:15

that's my question for you, man what happens when that doesn't happen?

Speaker 3: 5:18

yeah, what do you know what? What happens when the leaders think that your, your idea, is a lousy one one, and they don't want to go with it? And it's not that they're displeased with you as a person, they're fine with you as a person. They just didn't, at that moment, think that it was a good idea to go that way. Now, what do I do with my concept of self?

Speaker 2: 5:36

Hopefully you go home, find a blankie, turn on a movie with a bowl of ice cream, cry for a while and then say poo-poo on you all. That is one way to respond.

Speaker 3: 5:51

For me, what I found as I've coached oodles of other people that also have more of this sort of predilection is I had to develop something else that was helpful, and so I developed this particular phrase differentiated from outcome. So differentiation is always about distinguishing one thing from another right. So in human relationships, the temptation is something that's called fusion, where this in the 90s and 2000s was called codependency right. Where two people are dependent upon each other in an unhealthy way is called codependency right. Yeah, where two people are dependent upon each other in an unhealthy way, a counselor would say that they're fused together, right, okay?

Speaker 3: 6:29

What you do writes my identity Exactly yeah, so how I feel about myself is directly related to what you think about me. Yeah, couples married couples end up like this Sometimes best friends can end up like this Sometimes daughters and mothers can end up like this. Sometimes best friends can end up like this Sometimes daughters and mothers can end up like this right, so they can end up fused where there's almost no discernible distinction between them. But there are lots of things that you can fail to distinguish yourself from, to differentiate from related to identity. Okay, so remember, this is always about identity and acceptance to identity. Okay, so remember, this is always about identity and acceptance.

Speaker 3: 7:09

So I can fail to differentiate between myself and what has come about by my leadership. So if I lead and things go well and my goal is achieved, I feel great about myself. I'm a winner, jer, I agree about myself. I'm a winner, jer, I agree. And if I lead and my goal doesn't come about, I'm frustrated, I'm anxious, I'm fearful and I have no idea what my sense of identity is. And because I find it difficult to accept myself, in that time, I wonder if anyone else accepts me, including God, because I didn't get to my outcome. Okay, so that's the phrase. My phrase differentiated from outcome.

Speaker 2: 7:55

I kind of feel like we touched on this a bit with that second part of the pronged attack from Satan.

Speaker 3: 7:58

Say it again.

Speaker 2: 8:00

You messed up. God's going to reject you. Part of the pincer attack.

Speaker 3: 8:04

It's a part of that pincer attack.

Speaker 2: 8:05

Interesting. God's going to reject you. Part of the pincer attack. Yeah, it's a part of that pincer attack. Interesting, that's good. And it's always with us. And again, I'm not going to get angry again. But this is how Satan works. He wants to lie to us. He will lie to us, hoping that we buy this bill of sale. You messed up. God's going to reject you. You failed you. This bill of sale, you messed up. God's going to reject you. You failed. You're not going to be accepted. To distract us, to pull us away, so that we don't go back to our father and say I messed up.

Speaker 3: 8:34

I need your help. Yeah, which is obviously the right and better response.

Speaker 2: 8:38

Or even I didn't mess up, but I'm scared Right, Right.

Speaker 3: 8:43

But what happens if you don't differentiate from outcome two? Two things gonna happen. Wait, let me talk about this go ahead.

Speaker 3: 8:52

I was gonna say control ah you're right I'll give it back to you yeah, I mean, I think that that's um, you didn't say that right. Matt jared's trying to control the podcast. The Control is one of the things that I'm very tempted towards. That's exactly right. It's the right diagnosis. So if you are not differentiated from the outcome, you try and control the outcome, and that is a recipe for disaster, because humans are not made for control.

Speaker 3: 9:25

God is the one who controls. We work faithfully, we work by the power of the Spirit. We work using our gifts. We put our gifts on the field of play. I think of the parable of talents in Matthew 25, when the elders of my church in West Seattle was really passionate about getting this right and I think he was dead on Just think about the parable of the talents. Which of the people got God wrong? The one who got God wrong was the one who actually took the talent that he did have and he buried it because he could not secure the outcome that he thought God would want for it and so, out of fear of the master, he buried it. And that's actually the one who feared that he couldn't produce the outcome that God was upset about.

Speaker 2: 10:18

You're touching on something that I'm going to just point out very blatantly. When we interviewed Dr Quick in 3.5, he used the statement. I've heard him say a lot trust is the coin of the realm. This is beautiful when I, and when I'm that person and I've got the five talents and I say well, I know that you're shrewd, I know that you always you reap where you do not sow. You always have growth and it comes easy to you. You're a natural and I didn't do it, so I buried it, so that I'm not trusting you.

Speaker 1: 10:53

I'm not trusting that you can do.

Speaker 2: 10:55

Yes, I'm not trusting you, god, that you're able to do and the only thing that you can do. Yes, I'm not trusting you, god, that you're able to do, and the only thing that I can control is me. You've already said this. Right, I'm getting excited here. Sorry, you're allowed to be excited On this podcast.

Speaker 2: 11:12

I cannot control the outcome. I cannot control you. I can control me. I can control what I listen to, what interpret or what I internalize. I can judge, against scripture, the things I'm hearing. I'm not worthless, I'm not valuable. I don't have the power. This isn't the outcome I want. And I can take that back. And I can take every thought, captive to the obedience of christ, and say, yeah, but he's the hero, not me. Yeah, but he's the one in control, not me. He's the one who can change your heart, not me, and I can trust god with that. Or I can sit here and I can bury my talent. I that that parable is one of the ones, as I was preparing for this came to mind as well for this very thing, because it's and I think it's easily overlooked, it's easily missed, because, as coach, how you do on the field directly reflects on me, not just as a coach, but in terms of what my future prospects are, that's real Right, right. Sorry to cut you off. Please continue with your podcast.

Speaker 3: 12:15

No you're fine. No, you're great, you're great. So this, differentiated from outcome, I think is really important because it's what allows you to lead freely. And again, this is both for people who are externally driven by the people around them or people that are internally driven by their own goals or outcomes that they'd like to see. Both people are actually outcome-oriented. They're just outcome-oriented towards different kinds of outcomes.

Speaker 3: 12:41

The people-oriented pastor is oriented towards the outcome that in the worst case, people are pleased with them, and the goal-oriented pastor, in the worst of it, is that they get the outcome that they really think that they want. No, carefully, maybe not the outcome that God wanted, but the outcome that they want. No, carefully, maybe not the outcome that God wanted, but the outcome that they want. So if you're consumed by either one of the outcomes, if you can't feel okay about yourself, if you don't either get the people or the goal outcome, then you're not differentiated from it, you're actually hooked to it, you're fused to it. Just like two people in a relationship can be fused, pastors can be fused to what congregants think of them. Pastors can be fused to the certain outcome that they want Yep.

Speaker 2: 13:30

What other pastors think about them, based on how their church does?

Speaker 3: 13:33

Yes, you can be hooked to all kinds of things.

Speaker 3: 13:36

So where I see this in coaching Christian leaders is sometimes the Lord will use you in a situation in a school, in a business, in a pastorate but what he uses you for is not what you were thinking it was going to be.

Speaker 3: 13:52

You'll see this where the Lord uses somebody to plant a church and they get to maybe like the five to seven year mark and they're kind of like, well, the Lord did something. It wasn't exactly what I was praying for or working towards or whatever it's here, and I've got to either go do it again, which some people do and they should, or they have to get reconciled to it. They have to distinguish between what they wanted and what the Lord did and get okay with it. They have to bring theciled to it. They have to distinguish between what they wanted and what the Lord did and get okay with it. They have to bring the two of them together and if you don't, it'll kill you. If your sense of who you are is wrapped up either in what people think of you or in what you produce, it'll kill you in Christian leadership if you don't differentiate from outcome, because you can guarantee neither of those You're saying something that is I'll use a double like the Hebrew.

Speaker 2: 14:51

It's deeply profound. What's the right way to say this? What's the right way to say this? God didn't run his plan by me. You either. As a result of that, I cannot co-sign on what he's doing, right? The term for what I just described there is idolatry. God, you didn't do good enough. I can do better. Get out of my way. Let me do what needs to be done here.

Speaker 3: 15:31

Notice there's a judging of God there too, which is dangerous business for creatures.

Speaker 2: 15:34

That's why it will kill you, because at the root is, regardless of how good your intent is, regardless of how loving your intent is, regardless of how earnestly you want for your congregation to be righteous, to be doing what God has called them to do. I had this question in the notes how many Holy Spirits does it take to run a church Right?

Speaker 3: 15:54

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 16:01

Only one best. I know that's a question every pastor has to wrestle with, because a pastor's job is to shepherd, but it's in the context of being an under shepherd where there is an over shepherd who is the overseer of our souls, who is responsible for the outcome. Oh, by the way, he's able to cause us to stand in the glorious presence of God, fully unashamed, without blemish. Thankfully, I'm not, no, and if I try to yeah, you're darn right, it's going to kill me. I'm also going to hate God. I'm going to erect a wall of first discontent Bitterness, bitterness. God.

Speaker 3: 16:41

Bitterness, bitterness, consistent cynicism yeah, that's the root of all of those right starts with disappointment. That's not processed as grief, right, what's it look like if you do this? Well, I'm at work on a book right now. We're hoping, depending on how my schedule goes, that the next podcast season could be us talking about some of the concepts in the book as a preview to it coming out. We'll see if the Lord enables that outcome to happen. I'm trying to be differentiated from it. It's going to make or break my world, matt.

Speaker 2: 17:12

I just want you to know that now. Yeah, thanks, jared, I appreciate that.

Speaker 3: 17:19

So one of the concepts in the book the title of the book is Coaching Insights on Community Spiritual Discernment.

Speaker 3: 17:23

Community Spiritual Discernment is the easiest way to think about. It is if you're, say, a group of elders in a church and you're trying to come together to some sense of Allah Revelation 2 and 3, what would Jesus say if he was here to our church? Right? So that's community. It's not just you what you think about your church, it's spiritual, capital S spiritual because it's something you can only come to by the spirit and it's very clearly discernment. It's not something that one human can pull out of their own heart and wisdom. You're more in that spot of in James where, in the beginning of James, right, if any of you lacks wisdom, you're saying you come, your human wisdom is not going to be enough for this situation. So you lack wisdom until you come in humility and you ask the father who gives generously, and what you receive by the spirit in community is the wisdom that comes from above. That's challenging to receive because you get to just the very next verse, chapter four, verse one. Why is this challenging for us? Because we have these different passions, that war among us. And so community spiritual discernment. That's the book that I'm working on.

Speaker 3: 18:29

One of the concepts in community spiritual discernment is that, as you're coming towards a decision, that you hold it open-handedly. So think about the Jerusalem Council. They've got something they need to solve. This is Acts 15. They've got something they need to solve. Is the gospel, that it's sheer grace, no obligations. Is the gospel? You've got to become a Jew before you become a Christian? And where they end up is something that nobody came in with. They end up with a solution that nobody walked in the door with and it comes, surprisingly, out of the mouth of james, who probably provoked this problem. Actually, in the history of things, it appears that the people who went out and were causing problems were from james's own tribe okay, his own group, yeah. And the solution that comes out is something that nobody came in with. And it's so obvious to them that the spirit had given them the wisdom that came comes from above that they start off their letter to the church and they say it seemed good to the holy spirit and to us. They experienced community spiritual discernment. One of the key features in that is that the people who were in that much debate and dissension in Acts 15, they came in open-handed, they didn't have to control the outcome. They had to actually cede control of the outcome to the Holy Spirit, as the Holy Spirit directed, as they sought the wisdom that comes from above.

Speaker 3: 20:04

That open-handedness that goes into the making of a decision also has to follow as you use intentional faithfulness and you walk out, something is that you're also open-handed to how it goes, because you can't control how it goes much as you would like to. You can't control how it goes with people. You can't control how it goes with objectives and goals and priorities, projects. You just can't. You can't control either one of them.

Speaker 3: 20:37

What can you do? You can exercise intentional faithfulness. You can be thoughtful, you can be careful, you can depend upon the spirit. You can seek to use your gifts well and develop them and be prayerful and exhibit the fruit of the spirit towards people and love above all else. You can be intentional and you can be faithful, faithful to the Word, faithful to your calling, faithful to your job description, faithful to your various obligations, to people and to organizations that work for you.

Speaker 3: 21:14

You can be intentionally faithful when you look at Matthew 25 and you look at the parable of the talents, one they were given differential investment opportunity by the Lord, and it'll chew you up if you are pissed that you got a lower differential amount to invest than somebody else. So be careful of that. That's at the Lord's appointment. It's the gifts of grace that he gives, so be careful of that. Second thing is what did the Lord expect? He expected the one that he gave one and two and five or ten, depending on the iteration of the parable what did he expect them to do? He expected them to be intentionally faithful with what they had been given. That's what you're called to intentionally faithful with what they had been given. Yep, that's what you're called to. You're called what jesus expects of you. Return to that theme. What does jesus expect of you? He expects you to be intentionally faithful with what he gave you to invest for the sake of his name.

Speaker 2: 22:12

That's it, full stop so I look at king Saul. King Saul is told by saying he'll go to this place, wait for me there, I'm gonna come, I'm gonna make a sacrifice. King Saul is a Benjamite, he's not a Levite, he's not a priest, he's King. He gets impatient, he gets concerned because the people are probably gonna leave and he's like wait a second, this is a really good opportunity. And so he makes the sacrifice. Miss, he's making the sacrifice. Samuel shows up. Hey, what are you doing? What are you doing? This isn't yours, yeah, but I'm the king, yeah, but you're not the priest and this belongs to the priest. I look at this and I say how many holy spirits does it take? It takes only one, and he is not me. The holy Spirit is responsible to convict of sin, of judgment and of guilt, Righteousness yeah.

Speaker 2: 23:08

Guilt, sin and righteousness. Jesus did not sit in the garden of Gethsemane and say all right now, lord, I'm going to hold on to all these people. Father, it's my will that I go to the cross and I'm going to do according to my will, because it's a good plan laid out before the foundations of the earth. He said, lord, if it's possible, take this cup away from me, but not as I will, as you will. And he entrusted himself to God and he went to the cross. He went through the pain trusting himself to God, and he went to the cross. He went through the pain trusting himself to God, and he trusts God to hold on to the people that God's going to give him, just as it says back in Psalm chapter 2. I will give you the nations of the earth as an inheritance.

Speaker 3: 23:57

Just as a side note, that same entrusting. Some people say, well, that was Jesus. Well, think about Mary. The angel comes to Mary. She says let it be to me, as you say, Apostle Paul. Hey, Paul, it's another one of these community spiritual sermons, Acts 21. Hey, dude, you know, if you go to Jerusalem, you know what somebody's like. Well, you know what. I entrust myself to the Lord. So this isn't just for Jesus, this is for us too.

Speaker 2: 24:22

Jesus is the model of the faithfulness that we've been called to. Jesus, as a part of that Trinity, entrusted himself to the Father, to those relationships, knowing that what they had for him was good. Because of that, he was able to be differentiated and say I want this. But he was also able to be in a relationship and say, but not as I will, because you're the father and I'm the son, your will be done, I'll trust you. And then James, his brother, who later came back and was like oh, you probably actually are the Messiah. I should probably be doing this In hindsight. Actually, I always saw it, I knew I was testing you, younger brother, should. He comes back and says but you should say, if the lord wills, today or tomorrow we'll go to such and such a place and do such and such a thing, submitted himself to the lord and paul then, and Paul then reminds us work out your salvation in what Fear and trembling?

Speaker 2: 25:27

That's what I'm responsible for, not your salvation and not to give you fear and trembling, but to work out my salvation in fear and trembling. Why? Because clause statement, purpose statement. Because it is God who is at work in you, both to will and to do according to his good pleasure in Christ Jesus. Hmm, I could wish that there was an entire seminar and seminary for pastors getting ready to go into ministry to hear this and to have it spoken over them and repeated to them over and over again. Because there's only two things we can do we can push in and we can try to control it, or we can get angry at God and wash our hands of it and say this woman you gave me, it's her fault, right? Yeah, neither of which are helpful.

Speaker 3: 26:22

We've been called to be in that coach role.

Speaker 2: 26:22

It's her fault, right? Yeah, neither of which are helpful. Yeah, we've been called to be in that coach role. I tell you what I'm supposed to tell you. I push you, even though it hurts you, because it's good for you. I let you do the work and at the end of it, what happens happens and I'm okay with it. I'm going to push back in and we're going to hit the next game Just like we hit this one, fully, pushing forward to the open call in Christ Jesus. Not that coaches are doing that, but for our purposes I'm saying that's what coaches are doing. Yeah, absolutely, this is what pastors are doing with people, absolutely, all right. Well, there's a pin stuck in. We'll pick this up in the next episode.

Speaker 1: 27:02

Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that, this day dawned, jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy. If you have questions or a need, we'd love to hear from you. For more information, go to our website, flourishcoachingorg, or send an email to info at flourishcoachingorg. You can also connect with us on Facebook X and YouTube.

Speaker 1: 27:39

We appreciate when you like, subscribe, rate or review our show whenever you're listening. It can be hard for churches to ask for help, so when our clients tell us who referred them, we'll send a small gift to say thanks. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal Podcast was directed and produced by Jeremy Seferati in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you. Bye for now.