Setting The Anxiety Frame

SPEAKER_00 0:03

Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast.

SPEAKER_02 0:06

I'm Matt. I'm Jeremy.

SPEAKER_00 0:08

Anxious systems create anxious leaders, and anxious leaders intensify anxious systems. This episode unpacks how anxiety moves both up and down in church systems, and why a leader's role as a circuit breaker is essential. Jeremy and Matt explain systemic anxiety through metaphors of hurting, feedback loops, and biblical imagery, and show how leaders can stabilize a congregation by embodying a calm, non-anxious presence rooted in trust in God.

SPEAKER_02 0:36

Tag team, back again. Copy written by someone else. Uh it's good to see you again, Matt. We have we're still here recording, and we've just finished lunch. So if we fall asleep in the middle, you'll know why. That's exactly it. But it was delicious. Thank you, Main and Market, for your great food.

SPEAKER_01 0:53

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 0:54

Shout out. Uh-huh. So today we're going to dig a little bit deeper into some of the concepts that we've already explored.

SPEAKER_01 0:59

I'm a little anxious about this topic, by the way.

Herding And The Identified Patient

SPEAKER_02 1:02

That's delightful. If you've been following along for this season, most of what we've talked about here, we we have already touched on, but we want to I want to dig in a little bit more to some of the dynamics that exist here and look at the system as a whole and how it responds to anxiety and how the the leader in any organization or in any system, the critical role that he plays in what Friedman called referred to as a circuit breaker. So let me just lay the groundwork here with a couple terms. One term that Friedman talked about a lot is herding. And that's H-E-R-D, not H-U-R-T. Herding, like animals do. And this goes back to the illustration that you gave, I think, in episode one. You're sitting there in the middle of a school of fish. They have all herded together into this school. That's where they find their safety. And anything you do affects the rest of it. That's on a very causal sort of chain reaction level. It's it's an instinct level. When we're talking about herding, there's a couple of concepts that Friedman breaks out and that are present throughout family systems theory. One is that when you have a weak part in the system, a weak person, someone who's under functioning, a system looking to remain stable will put the majority of its focus onto that person or onto that spot. It's another way of saying the squeaky wheel gets the oil.

SPEAKER_01 2:36

The identified patient, if you've done some counseling, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:38

That's exactly correct. And if you've done counseling, or if you're a counselor, you know that the identified patient or the identified problem is almost always masking the actual problem. Right. And as a counselor, one of the things that I was constantly looking for, especially early in work with a new client, was what have they said they're here for? And what is that actually, what's actually going on that they haven't talked about, that they either don't know about or that they don't want to talk about.

SPEAKER_01 3:07

For you people that might have done you know different ways of biblical counseling orientation, that's the presenting problem versus the real problem. That's exactly correct.

SPEAKER_02 3:16

So there's that aspect here. In terms

Feedback Loops In Church Systems

SPEAKER_02 3:19

of a systems way of thinking here, what we're going to talk about today is how anxiety and how calm, how stability can move throughout a system. One of the things that is a part of this conversation here is the feedback loop that exists when you're looking at a system, when you're considering how a system works together, there's always a feedback loop. So you have the inputs, you have transformation, you have an output, and then you have a feedback loop. And that system can be open or it can be closed. There can be multiple points where you have inputs coming into the system. The outputs can go in multiple directions. You can have a system that's completely closed. It's just a circle. And uh, I don't have an example that's coming to mind right now, but there's plenty out there.

SPEAKER_01 3:59

And if you Google if you well, in a church setting, sometimes choosing a successor from within can be a version of that kind of closed loop. For sure.

SPEAKER_02 4:10

For sure. It's uh any kind of nepotistic uh succession planning is a closed loop. You're not bringing anything in from the outside. Everything that you're using has been developed right here in-house.

SPEAKER_01 4:24

And you know, it's insulation against change or loss of vision. There's that can be it can be made very dressed up, but generally speaking, it's it's not it's not the best. It's a fear of change.

SPEAKER_02 4:36

In the world of biology, that leads to a a narrowing of the gene pool. Right. And that leads to problems down the road. It's similar in non-biological systems. So you have what is referred to in the literature as positive and negative feedback loops. Simply put, a negative feedback loop, you can think about a thermostat. If we are not at this point, then there's something that we do. We're no longer hitting the mark, so the process now changes. If I'm going too fast, I hit the brake pedal. That brake pedal slows me down. And the more I press the brake pedal, the slower I go. On the other hand, you can have a positive feedback loop where if something's going well, I press the accelerator and I go faster. And the positive and negative have more to do with the direction than they have to do with sort of a quality. I can have a positive feedback loop that's actually killing me, where I'm getting good information, I'm getting positive moving forward kind of signals, but it's driving me down the wrong road. And this is what happens when you have a cancer that's running away. The body's getting a signal that says, hey, build, build, build. And the cancer cells are like, yes, sir, we will build, build, build. In that scenario, whether it's biological or non-biological, that fee that positive feedback loop, you have to stop it or it leads to destruction. You can also have a negative feedback loop that is erroneous. You're getting the you're getting some kind of signal to slow down to stop, and so you start doing so, but when in fact you should continue moving. So it's like in most things, there's a uh a number of ways that this can present.

Anxiety Flows Up And Down

SPEAKER_02 6:20

And as we've been talking through what it means to be a non-anxious presence, one of the things that we haven't talked about as much is how the anxiety within a system moves both up and down through the structure of the organization. Within a church, what this means is that if you have an anxious pastor, as Shaitama says, an anxious pastor will breed an anxious uh congregation that can also go in the opposite direction. An anxious congregation can create an anxious pastor. So that that's sort of the the backdrop here from which we're talking. And Matt, do you I think it's there. What was the I think the second Friedman statement? What was that?

SPEAKER_01 7:06

In what ways does anxiety and leadership create reactivity instead of reflection? And how can this be disrupted? That's kind of what I'm thinking about. Yeah. So uh we prep for these, so we kind of have questions that we're looking at as we look in front of us. So if you think about the maybe give you an organism illustration that might give you some help with um uh with thinking about this in terms of church. So think about a herd of cattle that are being led to summer pasture.

SPEAKER_02 7:49

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 7:50

There's uh, you know, a cowboy out in front, and he's leading them forward. And yeah, there may be some there may be some dogs, there may be some cowboys on the sides, but by and large, the calmness, the pace of that cowboy just kind of ambling and leading them out to summer pasture helps them feel non-anxious and go forward, right? So that's uh one from herding that's that's uh non-anxious. On a different note, you could think about a herd of cattle that's out in the field without a cowboy there, herd of sheep without a shepherd, and a wolf comes in among them and begins to scatter them and produce anxiety in the system. And so when we think about church leadership or business leadership, we're trying to think about the fact that we have the opportunity either to

Circuit Breaker Leadership

SPEAKER_01 8:54

add calm to the system or fuel the anxiety of the system. Friedman used to say that a good leader, a non-anxious presence, anxiety comes to them, but they act like a circuit breaker for it. So instead of transmitting it like you're a wire, you you the circuit breaker pops and the anxiety doesn't go through you. But your calm presence has a calming effect on the whole system. And Friedman would say that that is the role of the leader, is to be that non-anxious presence. And again, it's not as though you might not feel anxiety inside, but the way that you choose to act, you self-regulate. Right. Right? You sit back, you think, you reflect about how you want to react instead of just emotionally reacting in the moment, and you choose to regulate and you react in a way that acts like a circuit breaker, and the anxiety can't pass through you to others. And so if anxiety passes through you, like you become very anxious, so you call an emergency meeting, your elder board, and you get them all anxious about it, that's anxiety transmitting through you. When you calm it and you act as a circuit breaker, what happens is that it not only doesn't go through you to other people, but the person who came to you delivering the anxiety walks away more calm. And they walk back to the system more calm, and they bring the calm that you have back to them. That's the way that the non-anxious presence reduces the anxiety in the system.

SPEAKER_02 10:48

A leader who is able to do that, to be the circuit breaker, the transformer in that situation. Does that run a risk of looking cavalier or detached?

SPEAKER_01 10:59

If it's good, so if it's dismissal, um, that uh because you can be the kind of leader that something stops with you and you just dismiss

Calm Versus Dismissive

SPEAKER_01 11:07

the concern and that you don't take the pain of the person who's come to you into account. That does not reduce anxiety because if you don't actually deal helpfully with the anxiety in a way, people will go around you because you haven't actually helped calm the anxiety in the system, right? So if you're dismissive, it doesn't work. If you've differentiated, you've stayed emotionally connected, right? You haven't taken on the anxiety, you haven't transmitted the anxiety, but you've also helped calm it by staying distinct from the person who came to you, and by staying emotionally connected to them. You actually help them regulate as well, just like you've regulated. And that's what passes down.

SPEAKER_02 11:50

There's a term in psychology that has come out of family systems called mystification. Mystification happens when I let's say I've got my kid at four years old, and my kid comes and they've fallen down and they say, you know, I'm I'm her, my I feel like I'm dying. And I then say to them, Oh, you're not dying, you're fine. By not seeing through their perspective the level of anxiety that they're feeling, by not helping to sort of take on the energy of that, if you will, the you know, just how much emotional energy that takes, by simply dismissing it, I'm A, ignoring them, right? I'm B telling them that they shouldn't trust themselves, or their feelings aren't valid, or their feelings aren't valid, and I'm giving them a different narrative, which when you take that to its logical extent, is called gaslighting. You're crazy. Yeah, you're mistaken. And and don't trust yourself. And that's not what you're talking about. You're talking about someone who an issue has happened, I recognize fully the weight, the gravity, the importance of what has happened,

Practical Missteps That Amplify Fear

SPEAKER_02 13:03

and the fact that as we talk about you know an organizational change, yeah, something's on fire. Right. And we need to do something about this. But what's not gonna be on fire is my hair. Right. And if you want to light my hair on fire, I will I will calmly and graciously and gently take your hands and put them back down by your side and snuff out that match. Because my hair being on fire isn't gonna help this situation, even if it makes me feel like I'm doing something. I I've seen I've seen people do this. Uh, you know, someone is ultimately responsible for how something goes, a problem arises, and the first person that comes, even though they're not at all involved in the process for figuring out what to do or in enacting any changes, they're the first ones there asking all these questions, suggesting things that need to happen, saying this is a real problem, we've got to fix this, we gotta fix it right now. It's like, well, okay, could you go away so we can? Please. It's a fear-based, anxiety-driven reaction, and that reaction acts as a catalyst to increase the reactivity and the anxiety within the entire organization. When I've watched that happen, it does nothing but raise the temperature for everyone who's below. Right. All of a sudden now they're having a harder time coming up with a solution, they're snippy with each other, they're all agitated, it's harder to find a solution, they're making mistakes, and all of it was avoidable if the person who came in who should have been leading through their calm had, you know, if they'd done so, we wouldn't be in that place.

SPEAKER_01 14:42

But because they've come in this way, because they've seen the problem for what it is and they're really taking it seriously, it's like, okay, but they've sort of amplified they've acted as an amplifier instead of a circuit breaker.

SPEAKER_02 14:52

That's absolutely the case.

SPEAKER_01 14:53

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's definitely a problem if you if that's the way you act as a leader where you amplify it, right? And again, we're not talking about being dismissive of people. We're not talking about really listening to them or understanding them. But what we're trying to say is that, you know, do we need to pull the fire alarm because there's a fire in the kitchen? Right. A real literal physical fire where people could lose their lives. That is definitely something to be very upset about. It is. But that, you know, congregant Susie Sally, you know, doesn't like that lunch is going to be at 1230 instead of 1215 is not a hair on fire. Even if congregant Susie Sally is, you know, influential and everything, it it doesn't matter all that much.

SPEAKER_02 15:39

Even if Susie Sally is diabetic, we say, okay, well, here's a granola bar. We're gonna get the food out as soon as we can. Let's make sure your blood sugar level is okay. But it's not, you know, there was an example, I think, in in uh Jack Shaitama's book where you have someone in the front of the room and if there is a fire, and the person in the front of the room where you're you're listening to a lecture, that person starts screaming and crying.

Trusting God As Non‑Anxious Core

SPEAKER_02 16:05

It's like, okay, well, this isn't gonna help anyone. But if someone stands up calmly and says, All right, there's a fire, we're dealing with it. There's an exit in the back here. Could everyone start making their way to this exit calmly? Help the person next to you, please. It brings a piece, it brings it doesn't solve the problem. Right. What it does do is it makes it possible for the system to reorient itself and to work cooperatively, yeah, to the goal. Right, right. Yep. And that doesn't have to come from the leader up front, which is a crazy thing. That any part of the system can take on that role of being a non-anxious presence, especially in the midst of crisis.

SPEAKER_01 16:44

And I think you can teach this, right? You can you can acknowledge the real emotions that other people are feeling, and you can acknowledge the challenge of the situation, but respond with the corner of the realm with trust. Ultimately, trust in the Lord. Absolutely. Not trust that we can figure this out perfectly, not trust that we can do this in a way that nobody's gonna be upset with us, not trying to control the outcome like we talked about several episodes back, but really just trusting that the Lord is at work and whatever this is is not going to ultimately sink the kingdom of God because we can't do that. You know, we can't we can't screw something up so bad. Yes, individual congregations come and go. This is very painful, it's difficult to be there at the end. I've experienced that personally and with other churches, but even that is not the end of everything, right? Right. However, if you're not differentiated, if your sense of self is hooked to these people thinking that you're great, or this church being a success, whatever definition that is, then that when that person comes with that anxiety and says, Hey, you know, Congregant Susie Selly's really pissed at you, now your life is over.

SPEAKER_02 17:59

The the defining characteristics here is that this person knows their identity, their values, and their purpose, right, and is able to maintain those in the midst of a togetherness.

SPEAKER_01 18:13

Rightenness pressure.

SPEAKER_02 18:15

Yep, to do this or that and can stay engaged in the system emotionally while maintaining their distinctiveness. So I think about Shadrach, Meshach, and Abendigo.

SPEAKER_01 18:27

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_02 18:28

Right? Yep. Here they are before the most powerful man in the world who says to them, Hey, uh, I've I've got a really great deal for you. You can stay alive or you can die. Stay alive, my terms, die your terms, you choose. And their response is know this, okay. We know who we are. We know our identity, we know our values, we know what we can and cannot do. So as a result, we know what we're going to do in the midst of this anxiety.

Everyday Anxiety, Burdens, And Care

SPEAKER_02 19:02

And uh, you know, I guess I'll step back here and talk a little bit more about anxiety. We've said this before, but anxiety, and we're talking about this, is not the clinical anxiety that we're, you know, if you're going to your therapist or whatever. Anxiety in this sense is a an unrest within a community over either perceived or known future problems. It that's my definition, that's not clinical, but that's how I sort of think about this.

SPEAKER_01 19:32

Is that yeah, I mean I think it's the I think it's the the general discomfort, the general fear, um the the angst about past or future or present circumstances. Angst is a really good word, yeah. Yeah, and so it not every congregation is racked with anxiety, but most systems, most families, most marriages, most parenting structures, most churches, because they're filled with sinful people in a broken world with broken relationships, there's a level of anxiety that is there almost all the time. Right. It can be very low level and not disabling and doesn't keep mission from going forward and things like that. But when you face uh struggle, a trial, a change, a downturn, we're uh recording um near in Apollo, Maryland today, and this part of the country has experienced the changes since the new administration has come in in a different way than where I live in North Idaho. Yes. Because we're we're far removed from people uh losing federal governmental jobs, right? And so the anxiety that is felt in the my congregation, in not the congregation I pastor, but the one I attend in North Idaho is unrelated to the loss of federal jobs. But the congregations here in this area in the Baltimore, Washington corridor, that there's not a single one that is not affected by that anxiety. So anxiety can happen for a variety of reasons. And the smart leader, the sharp leader, the maturing leader is conscious of it so that they can be a circuit breaker for it. So they can be that non-anxious presence that says, We've got a good father in heaven, he's given up his son for us so that we could be in the family that we would not be at stake. And so, yes, this may be a challenge, but that doesn't mean that it has to be a problem. And those are those are important things. Shaitama does a good job with that. No one gets the problem they can solve or else it wouldn't be a problem, right? Everyone has challenges, right? Right. So, you know, Galatians 6, everyone should carry his own burden. Yeah, his own burden, but in that same passage, bear with one another, bear what bear with one another, right? You know, and so there's there's this dynamic of everyone has challenges and they're responsible to carry them, but sometimes you get something that is bigger than a challenge, right? And so that you need

Grounding Conviction In Scripture

SPEAKER_01 22:01

bear each other's burdens, right? You know, and so challenges for everyone is sort of the generalized level of anxiety in a congregation, but sometimes there are burdens and they're brought on by different kinds of circumstances, congregational or or cultural.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

And that's where the whole idea here of anxiety and triangulation go hand in hand, because as a body, we have been called together to bear one another's burdens, and ultimately we know that Christ is the one who bore the burdens for us. And so we're casting our burdens onto him because he cares for us, but we're also walking hand in hand and arm in arm with our brothers and sisters, walking with each other to the throne for help in our time of need, for grace for each other. Now that that's when a congregation is working well together and knows who its Lord is, knows who its master is, they can look to that cowboy or that shepherd, if you want to use the biblical analogy, who's out there in front, leading calmly. And as David says, even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil. Because you're with me. Your rod, your staff, they come for me. I know who you are. You're the God who prepares a table for me in the presence of my enemy. You're the one who causes my my cup to run over. You're the one who pursues me with your goodness and mercy all the days of my life. The depth of conviction that is required for a leader to be able to walk that way is one that must constantly be regrounded and deepened in the knowledge of who God is. Which takes us all the way back to episode one. As we're talking about the relationship we've been called into, it goes back to who God is. The brokenness that I'm experiencing, the weakness I'm facing as I'm walking through my family struggle or my work struggle or my church struggle, is directly and proportionally related to how deeply I can look to God and say, know this, okay. I can't do that. And if that means you throw me into the fire, you're gonna throw me into the fire. My God is able to rescue me. And if he doesn't, I still know who I am. I'm still gonna do what he called me to do.

SPEAKER_01 24:12

So some people would hear that and they'd go, Oh man, you're right, I gotta trust the Lord more, but how do I do that? How do I how do I grow in my trust of the Lord? How do I have that sense like David had and like she had arachnes in a bed ago? What would you say? How have you uh how have you seen, Jared, that it is to grow in the Lord and to grow in trust of him?

SPEAKER_02 24:32

Unfortunately, um no one's gonna like this answer, but it's and I don't think it's sold a lot of books. Uh the way you come to know and to trust God is by being dependent on him.

SPEAKER_01 24:44

That is not a welcome. It is not. Could you please put that in a in a more positive way that I might like better?

SPEAKER_02 24:51

Absolutely. Because God loves you, he's going to stretch you and put you into a furnace and burn it with fire to make it really, really hot so that all the things that are of you burn away. Wait, this feels like sanctification all over again. Wait a second.

How Leaders Grow Trust Under Trial

SPEAKER_02 25:07

That made it easier, right? Trying to make this easier. God will break your leg to keep you close. Wait, uh let me think of another one. God crucified his son for your sake.

SPEAKER_01 25:19

Nope. And none of these are getting easier, by the way. I'm just letting you know. Are they?

SPEAKER_02 25:22

No, not so.

SPEAKER_01 25:23

So actually, this isn't that when we're joking around, but it it to trust in the Lord is to learn to look at his promises and to look at the cross a lot. Because I think that when you look at the cross a lot and you realize the profundity of what the Father is saying. I love our we were talking about the Westminster Confession of Faith a couple episodes ago, but in the Westminster Confession of Faith, when it talks about Jesus as the mediator, this is like Matthew chapter six, I think, it says that Jesus came most willingly. And I think that is maybe the two most wonderful words that have ever written been written in a document like that. That it was the Father's appointment and the father's asking of the Son to come for us, and that Jesus raised his hand and he said, I I am I will most willingly go. Send me. Yeah. And and the Spirit to bring these things home to us and to show us the profundity of uh what all God wanted to do that we could have identity and acceptance. And ours to shed the other places where we try and find that, where other places that we try and find identity and acceptance instead of working for those uh to receive them as they're offered, uh freely by grace through faith. That to me is is growth because and it's also it's stable, right? Doesn't change that kind of identity acceptance does not move around. And so there's a great beauty about it, but it's it's hard fought. You know, you know the identity and the acceptance that you've received from yourself, from your family, from others, you know the rejection as well, but to just simply receive it by faith without working is different than a lot of us.

SPEAKER_02 27:21

So think on this for a second, right? Jesus goes down to the Jordan, as we talked about.

SPEAKER_01 27:27

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 27:27

John sees him, says, Hey, here comes the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Jesus is like, actually, I'm here to be baptized. You baptize me. And John's like, that's backwards, you know that, right? And Jesus is like, hey, if it is, listen to who just told you and go ahead and do it. John, John does it. Jesus comes up out of the water. You know, the father says, This is my son, in whom I'm well pleased. And immediately, Mark tells us the Spirit led him away into the wilderness to be tested. How do we learn how to trust God? Unfortunately, it isn't just God gives us our identity and acceptance.

Eyes On Jesus, Not The Waves

SPEAKER_02 28:06

He then leads us away to be tested. Yeah. And it's in that testing that he reveals himself to us by bringing us to the end of ourselves, which is that that's what it means to say that whoever is gonna follow Jesus must come and die. Right. Every bit of me must be replaced with him. There's nothing I'm bringing to this equation that God's like, oh, you know what? Most of that is crap, but that right there, I'm so glad I've got that from Jared. That just I'm gonna put that one on the shelf. I really needed that. Yeah. My the best of my righteousness is filthy rags. The best I'm gonna do, I rem I don't remember who it was that said this, but the best prayer I've ever prayed on my best day had enough sin in it to condemn the entire world to hell. God takes me from that place and says, I'm doing something in you. And in the same way that the world is going to be completely remade, I too am going to be completely remade. And the way I learn to trust God is in the process of him me remaking me here now while I'm alive, instead of resisting that and sabotaging that by going over to my ex-evangelical blog and being like, God is so false. A Christian has proven whatever it might be. And I I don't say that with any malice towards people. I there are plenty of people who have been very hurt by the church. I recognize that, but I am sympathetic towards that. It is wrong. All the sin done in the church towards the church and towards people outside the church is sin. It's wrong. But I found this to be true that God only uses sinners in my life to help my sanctification and to let me see Him and trust Him. Him more. God's not going to lead me to the church of the non-sinners. Wait.

SPEAKER_01 30:09

I thought that was the promise we were offering. Was that the offer that we had on this week on the podcast? Lead you to the church that doesn't have sinners? No, I guess not. How does this help us? Um the leaders who listen to this podcast be that non-anxious presence that can act as the circuit breaker for anxiety in the church system?

SPEAKER_02 30:36

I think it goes right back to again the very beginning with relationship. Am I looking at the mirror and worrying about what I see? Or am I looking into the perfect law of God and seeing Him? Where is my focus? Am I looking at the waves that are rising up around me? Or

Closing Encouragement And Resources

SPEAKER_02 31:00

am I looking at the dude who's walking on top of the water who just told me to get out of the boat and come to him? Am I looking at the one who laid down his life and then took his life up again? Who said that he will never leave me and never forsake me. Who challenged Joshua? Don't be afraid, but be of good courage.

SPEAKER_01 31:22

Maybe that's a good illustration, Attnon, because I think that that is um that the the non-anxious presence is again, you might feel anxious inside, but the way you're leading, the way you're talking, the way you're being with people is non-anxious. I think that's the person who's not looking at the waves. It's not that they're not acknowledging that there are waves or that there's water, they're not wishing things away. They're just saying there's a Jesus on the waves, and we need to look to him and trust him.

SPEAKER_02 31:59

And remember this. Just before they took off on that boat, right? Jesus went away to the mountains to pray. And it says in the middle of the night, Jesus saw them. He saw them in the middle of the lake and he went to them. The reason I don't have to look at the waves is because I know the one who made the waves can see the waves so much better than I do. And he's watching them. He sees me. He knows what I'm going through. I mean, Matt, you know. Just to pull back the curtain completely. God knows exactly what I'm going through in my family, in my personal life, in my finances, in my career. He knows all of it. Every bit of it he's seen. And his love for me has never been removed. And he simply said to me, Hey, buddy, you're my beloved son. I'm gonna take care of you. Trust me.

SPEAKER_01 32:56

And that's what he says to each of you. Dear listener.

SPEAKER_00 33:01

Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal podcast from Flourish Coaching. Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawned. Jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy. If you have questions or need, we'd love to hear from you. For more information, go to our website, lawrencecoaching.org, or send an email to info at law's coaching.org. You can also connect with us on Facebook, Techs, and YouTube. We appreciate when you like, subscribe, rate, or review our show whenever you're listening. It can be hard for churches to ask for help, so when our clients tell us to refer to them, we'll send a small gift to say thanks. A huge thank you to all our guests for making the time to share their stories with us. We are really blessed to have all these friends and partners. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal podcast was directed and produced by Jeremy Seferati in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you. Bye for now.