SPEAKER_00: 0:03

Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast.

SPEAKER_02: 0:06

I'm Matt. I'm Jeremy.

SPEAKER_00: 0:08

Last week, Matt and Jeremy began tracing how discernment and differentiation fit together as spiritual practices. Ways that leaders stay clear, humble, and faithful while listening for the spirit's direction. For the sake of continuity, we're going to roll back to the end of last week's episode where they left off as the conversation turns from foundation to formation, from what spirit-led leadership is to what it actually looks like in real life. In this episode, they take us inside the work of staying present when anxiety rises, of leading with courage instead of control, and of building the kind of community where discernment can truly take root. Let's rejoin the conversation for part two of discernment and differentiation led by the spirit.

SPEAKER_02: 0:51

Right, we could pivot to at this point. Brad Paisley has a song called Me and Jesus. And you read this in my notes, and you're like, I don't know the song. Well, the basic premise of the song is a guy singing to Me and Jesus, we're fine.

SPEAKER_01: 1:01

Ah, okay.

SPEAKER_02: 1:02

And I I listened to the song, and this could be the anthem for a lot of Christians I know. I've got a hot line to God. I talk to him, he tells me whatever it is that I'm gonna tell you he told me, and that's it. We're good.

SPEAKER_03: 1:17

He said it's cool, it's cool. It misses that wisdom in a multitude of counselors, right? And I think it misses that because I still need sanctification and I'm still radically imperfect. Man, I can be very, very mistaken. I can just be subject to my own immaturity, which is ongoing. Absolutely, which is a great danger uh for people who accept themselves from church, they're kind of like, I already know what I need uh to know. I need to grow. And I'm a 50-something pastor, I've been in ministry for over 30 years, and it's staggering how much I still don't know and don't understand and am mistaken about. Uh, we all need that ongoing growth.

SPEAKER_02: 1:56

Well, this goes all the way back to episode two as well. Because when I when I separate myself out and and take on this demonic theology that me and Jesus can just have our own thing coexisting on uh-huh direct pipeline, right? What I'm saying fundamentally is the whole family motif that also carries with it the authority structure that is born out of God's person. I'm saying, Lord, I don't need that. Yeah. Your authority structure is crap.

SPEAKER_03: 2:25

Right, right. I can I can make it on my own.

SPEAKER_02: 2:27

Someone somewhere got it wrong ahead of me, and I don't really think this is of you because you speak directly to me. You're the only one who's gonna judge me because you've already said Christians can't be judgers.

SPEAKER_03: 2:38

Right. And it's it's to cut ourselves off from part of the goodness that God wants to give to us. In the New Testament, there are 24 one another commands, and if you cut yourself off from the body of Christ, you can neither obey them for the sake of others nor receive from others as they obey them, and that is a great detriment to you and to other people, to not have you be there to minister to them. Well, much less you be there so other people can minister to you.

SPEAKER_02: 3:06

So it's more than my rejection of God's ordained authority. Yeah. It's also me separating myself out and saying, Hey, I'm gonna take my I'm gonna take my marbles and I'm gonna go play by myself. I'm gonna play over here, you're not gonna get the benefit. And you know, nice knowing you, God be with you. Patch on the bottom, and then you see you in heaven, maybe.

SPEAKER_03: 3:27

Right. So, how do these relate discernment differentiation? I like the the scene in Acts 15, and the reason that I like it for a lot of reasons is it's a good example of community spiritual discernment and how this happens. Because as the different participants are there, they act in ways that we would describe as differentiated. So notice that the speech, the speeches are what what I think. They're not what you are messing up, they're not how you're heretical, right? They're me. This is this is my experience as I've ministered, and they're people that are keeping within their goals and values. Um, they're not stepping over the line, and and they're not defining other people, they're not stepping over the line and telling other people, well, you you're wrong. You know, you you got that, you know, that's not what's happening. So, it in one sense, a good conversation that's headed towards discernment. That's what X-15 is. That kind of conversation is best pursued by people who are differentiated. If they're not differentiated, here's what happens. And I know um I'll just grab other people's experiences because you listener may have never experienced this before. So I'll just tell you about other people's experience. Matt's fables. So uh, so yeah, Matt's fables, not Friedman's Fables, but Matt's Fables, um, which is marvelous. If you've not read Friedman's Fables, it's it's quite marvelous.

SPEAKER_02: 4:56

He is a he's a great writer.

SPEAKER_03: 4:57

Um, so you know, how many times have you been in a conversation trying to with other Christians trying to understand the Lord's will, and somebody comes along and says, Well, that's because you and they are making assumptions about you, they're judging you, they're critiquing you, and in this family systems theory, the way what that's called is they're defining you, not defining self.

SPEAKER_02: 5:23

Well, I do do that, Matt. You're correct about that.

SPEAKER_03: 5:27

Certainly don't adapt to it. So the other thing that happens in differentiation, uh again, one of these conversations, people gather for community spiritual discernment, is there are two reactions. I think we maybe touched on these yesterday or when we were recording, but in so previous episodes for you listener. But there's two reactions for people that aren't differentiated in a difficult conversation, right? Which certainly Acts 15 is one of those. And the labels for these are reactivity and adaptivity. And again, they're just labels to describe behavior. So, what is reactive behavior looks like? Well, Jared comes at me and he says, Well, you know, I my sense from the scriptures is that, um, and again, he's actually doing this part right in this scenario. My sense from the scriptures is okay, so he's not trying to define me, finding himself, he's telling me about his goals and values, is he's saying what his position is, right? My sense from the scriptures is that Gentiles shouldn't be subject to the law. That was for the Jews. Yeah. And one possibility that I could have in reaction to that is that I could blow my top. And I could react to that and say, look, I'm from a Jewish background, I've always done this. If I've had to do it, then everybody should have to do it, and you're wrong, right? And I could just blow my top and react to Jair in conversation, and the effect that that typically has is it makes the other person back down and back off, and it ends up as a power play, as a manipulation. Yep. So reactive, that's not that's not helpful, right? And that's a lack of differentiation because what have I done? I've stepped over the line into Jair's space. What I should say is okay, I hear you, I hear what you said. Here's my perspective for consideration. Okay, so that's not reactive. It's that I do hear him, I do respect his viewpoint, I do listen to it, make sure that I understand it. So it's, you know, it's it's um, you know, good communication. I can repeat back to him um what he can say. Good, good um debate um, you know, etiquette is that I can repeat back to you your position in a form that you can believe before I disagree with. Okay? Yes. All right. So but the reactive just blows this top and uses it as a uh you typically as a form of manipulation, as a form of stepping over the line and defining the other person. All right. So that's one bad, that's one way that conversations like this get blown up and keep you from actually getting to something that is the wisdom that comes from above. The other problem that can happen with differentiation is what's called adaptivity. Um, and adaptivity is Jared says, Oh, I don't think we should expect anything of the Gentiles at all. The gospel that we heard is one of free grace. Okay, full stop. And I go, even though in my heart of hearts, I want to say, no, I don't think that's right, because Jesus was Jewish and the you know, Ten Commandments are abiding, uh, and the kinds of things that you might say in a logical argument about this, and we're said in the Jews and Council. I kind of go, Oh, okay, I guess you're right. And I never actually I don't stick to my own goals and values. I don't actually say my viewpoint. Um, when I'm teaching this to groups that are gathered for discernment, I talk about putting that we're trying to put together a thousand-piece puzzle and everybody has pieces in their pocket. Yeah, we can't make the picture unless everybody takes their pieces out of their pocket.

SPEAKER_02: 8:46

Yes.

SPEAKER_03: 8:47

Reactivity means I leave my pieces in my pocket because I don't want to step into that again. Right. I'm like, okay, forget it. Mine must not be part of the picture. Adaptivity says, oh no, um, I'm I'm scared of this. I don't think I've got any wisdom from the spirit. Um, I'm gonna leave my pieces in my pocket. And so they're both adaptivity and reactivity keep us from gathering all of the wisdom that we could from the people at the table. And this is where errors and differentiation can actually make this work of humanity spiritual discernment much harder. Super dense. Sorry.

SPEAKER_02: 9:25

No, no, I I that's excellent, and I'm sure we'll go over time, but thankfully my timer hasn't gone off. So I'm gonna keep on pushing on this. Okay. You said the word fear when talking about the adaptivity. Yeah. Yeah. And I want to ask about that, but I also want to go back and ask about the first because I'm drawing a connection in my mind here. Again, identity and acceptance. I can understand as a person who genuinely is more prone to adaptivity than reactivity.

SPEAKER_03: 9:51

And Matt more prone to reactivity than adaptivity, which is why he just jumped on that.

SPEAKER_02: 9:55

That's right. I can answer this question: why would I adapt? Uh and I I can tell you because I've done a lot of thinking about myself, a lot of listening to others reflect back to me what they see in me and how they experience my, you know, all that um personality ellipsis. And I can say the biggest reason that I would walk away, quiet down, back down, is because I'm afraid of the loss of relationship.

SPEAKER_01: 10:25

Mm-hmm. Acceptance. Acceptance.

SPEAKER_02: 10:28

Now, I want to ask this what other reasons bes you know, besides fear, might someone adapt in in a scenario like this?

SPEAKER_03: 10:38

Yeah, yeah. So again, adaptivity is that you don't stick to your goals and values, you don't take your viewpoint out of the pocket, you don't take your pieces out of your pocket and lay them on the table. So why else would people not do that? Some people um better sense their humility than others, which is ironic. Because some people whose self-concept is not based in the gospel, who don't have a good sense of their gifts or their wisdom, they actually can tend to be more thoughtful, but they're more hesitant because of their humility to take their pieces out of their pocket. And so it's not just fear that's loss of relationship, it's also that I'm insecure about the insight that I think that I have. Kind of something yeah, and I wonder, is this an environment where I can float this? I can't tell you how many times as our elder board is our session in our church, we had an elder that was so, so good at this, so good at helping us. We'd be going along back and forth, and he was a much quieter one, and he wasn't one of the reactive ones like me and the other guys. And um, and he'd just sit back there, and man, could he cut a Gordian knot. And man, could he he didn't he wasn't adaptive in the sense that he wouldn't put his pieces out on the table, but he did wait for all us reactive to kind of put it all out there, and then the Lord invariably worked through this brother, and like in Acts 15, we're out of James's mouth, and you're gonna have to read the book about why that's so ironic that it's out of James's mouth, right? And and out of this guy's mouth would be like, Oh, yeah. So um, none of us came in with that idea, but it's very clear and obvious that that is exactly what we should. And there the spirit had worked among us through this debate and disagreement, through everyone being willing to put their pieces on the table. And a picture had emerged, it was kind of like, Well, I didn't think that was the way it was gonna be. It was the back of the pieces. Who could have known? Right? Yeah, and that's um that's there's supposed to be a nice brown cardboard looking piece right here. Yeah, and it's um so I think that so you said what are the reasons for adaptivity? So fear, um, and insecurity is a little bit different than fear, it's a little bit different than loss of relationship, right? It's um it it could be lack of confidence, it could be real humility.

SPEAKER_02: 13:02

I think that I think I think insecurity goes to an identity issue more than an acceptance issue. I'm not really sure about this. Because I'm not confident, right, I I I want to be confident because this is important, right? Because I'm not, I'm just I'm gonna hold back. And I'll say this too, and this isn't probably just me, okay? But when I do that, whether it's from insecurity or fear of rejection or fear of acceptance, whatever that is, I have found more often than not that what is actually underneath is a lack of love for the people with whom I'm walking. Talk about that. I'm okay, so I we're in it, we're in a you know, what some people have rightly called crucial conversations. We haven't a real issue we need to work through to find a solution. We need to identify what this actually is, define it together, have a shared meaning, figure out what we need to do, come up with a plan and move forward, otherwise bad things happen. Right. I may see a particular thing. I may be watching and say, hey, I I have something here, I see something, I believe this would help us move forward. I also don't think it's gonna be received well. And maybe someone else will come up with that. You know, there's lots of really smart people here, right? And I'm just gonna wait and listen. And when there's a point at which my waiting and listening really is, you know, just speaking for me, I do that to try to gain more understanding before stepping forward. But at some point, and I've found this with myself, at some point I will know I need to say this. And if I don't say it, the truth at the end of the day is because I really don't care what happens to you.

SPEAKER_03: 14:50

It's a lack of love.

SPEAKER_02: 14:51

I don't care how this turns out, I'm not invested in it, so do whatever you want. Yeah. Yep. Because at the end of the day, I'm gonna walk away and bad things might happen, but you know, God's good, He'll redeem, and blah, blah, blah. I don't care about you.

SPEAKER_01: 15:10

I don't end up loving enough to be genuine to show up in integrity.

SPEAKER_02: 15:18

Interesting. Because that's what it really comes down to.

SPEAKER_03: 15:21

You uh you had mentioned Amy Edmondson a couple episodes ago, and I think that this is a space where that idea of that psychological safety. Psychological safety. Okay. So I think that people who are tempted towards adaptivity, who hesitate to speak their mind, right? They really, really need a place that it's very clear that this is a place of psychological safety. Yep. And the people like me that are reactive, man, um, what Jair's just described about holding back because of a lack of love. I I hold back consciously in many, many conversations. Jeremy's about ready to lose his mind because you can't imagine that. But in group settings, I hang back and I pray because I don't want to dominate the conversation. And if the spirit wants it to get said, I pray that somebody else will say it. Yeah. And if no one does, then towards the end, meekly, after many others have been heard, I may offer it as um, I and I would, I not may, I would offer it if it's not been said, and I do think it's a wise and it lines up with scripture. Yeah um, I will say it humbly, but after many others have spoken.

SPEAKER_02: 16:41

Yeah, I've been there as well. And oftentimes I will approach that in this sort of way. Hey, I've been listening, I just want to offer this as an observation. Yep. And I'll couch it just that way. Exactly. What I don't want to do is the fact that I'm saying, because we all know the guy who is quiet can be perceived as wise because the fool who doesn't speak is considered wise, right?

SPEAKER_03: 17:02

Right. Rather than opening his mouth and taking away all doubt, right?

SPEAKER_02: 17:05

Yeah. Um, but I also know that there is a gravitas that can be mistaken for truth. Yep. And I don't want to do that either.

SPEAKER_03: 17:15

And the last word shouldn't always win. No, because the last word might be tremendously unwise. And it may be that if I've held back and I've listened to everything, I'm like, well, I thought that was insightful, but it's actually not now that I've listened to the conversation. Wait.

SPEAKER_02: 17:27

And that goes back to choosing the 12th disciple or the 13th disciple. Yes, we did this. Yes, we made a decision. Does that mean that we don't ever visit this again? That we don't go through this process again saying, Lord, what are you doing?

SPEAKER_03: 17:41

Yeah, yeah, because Paul Paul brought the son up again. Paul was a hard choice, right? There was a legitimate fear as a uh first nomination ballot. He was not on the first nomination ballot. So to so um so when we think about adaptivity and reactivity, right? Us that me, I'll put this label on me, us that are perceived as dominant as leader types and groups, um, we can distort the conversation because people expect because of our dominance that we're gonna be reactive. And so it's our job to create that psychological safety where when someone brings someone, especially someone who's meek, brings out their pieces and sort of gently lays them on the table and begins to flip them over, that we go, thank you. We would have never understood part of this without you being willing to do that. And and that produces a good cycle. Because it may be that me as a dominant leader, I may have a good idea, but there's just as good a chance, or maybe better, that I don't. And that's why we do it in community and why it's discernment, right? That's right. Because it's if it if it could just be done by me, then no well, then we just do it that way. But I know my lack of wisdom.

SPEAKER_02: 19:00

Dr. Quick gave us that story back in uh season 3.5, which is airing actually right now, is you when I record this um about the church that was going through this and the direction that the Lord brought for the church came through the most unlikely source.

SPEAKER_06: 19:15

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 19:16

There's so we have we've talked about the adaptive person, fear, insecurity, um, lack of love. We can talk about the reactive person, and we can talk about there is potentially fear as a motivation there. There's potentially pride as a motivation.

SPEAKER_03: 19:34

Absolutely, pride is a motivation. Um and lack of emotional management, like emotional management, like like not being able to deal with being disagreed with, which is a complex kind of thing, dealing with idolatry and pride and and some emotional regulation, because it's an anxious thing to be in a conversation where you don't know what's gonna be where it's gonna go, and people react to that anxiety differently.

SPEAKER_02: 19:54

There's a concept of courage by an author that you and I have both read, Brene Brown. Right. Yep. And this idea of courage is one that I think dovetails very nicely in here. Um because when I think about the reactive person in this kind of setting, the verse I want to have this person write down and just kind of carry in their front pocket is in the multitude of words there's often folly. But for the person like me who's adaptive, I want to write down the scripture from Ezekiel, A Watchman on the Wall. If you see the evil coming and don't say anything, their blood is on you. Because that's what I have to wrestle with. That's where I have to say, well, I'm this is how I know it's not loving.

unknown: 20:40

Right.

SPEAKER_02: 20:41

Because at some point something bad happens, and I was there. I was responsible to speak up. And even if they weren't going to leave us, listen, even if they were going to reject me, God's gonna hold me responsible for the task he gave me, which was to carry out what he gave me the day. Right, right, right, and in both cases, what's required is courage. In my case, it's courage that I will be okay, that I'll be safe. In your case, as the reactive person, it's courage to say that even if I don't say this, God will still work out what's good.

SPEAKER_01: 21:14

Right, right, right, yeah. Courage and trust, right? Trust is the coin in the realm. And it's it's trust for both. Uh interestingly.

SPEAKER_02: 21:22

It's trust for both. It's almost as if we need to allow God to be differentiated and not overfunction for him or underfunction.

SPEAKER_03: 21:34

That's fascinating. That's actually fascinating. Yeah, because the dominant person overfunctions and the adaptive person underfunctions. That's very interesting when we're gathered for community spiritual discernment, right? Indeed. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02: 21:48

So do you want to talk about isolation?

SPEAKER_03: 21:50

Yeah. So sometimes differentiation, remember, differentiation, my talking about it is there's a line that exists between two people, right? And that the differentiated person gets right up to the line, but they stay on their side of the line, right? They don't yell from way back, right? Um, they get right up to the line and they relate right there at the line. They don't step over the line. Okay. So the isolated person is the person who's way back from the line. And you may be hearing their words, but you're not getting their relationship. They're not in genuine community with other people to where other people can actually see them and speak into their life and that they could receive the one another's from somebody else. And so to be differentiated is not to be isolated. That is an absolute mistake that these are the people they don't they don't hear it from anybody because I'm differentiated. I I had a friend that I worked with many years ago who was just coming, this came from a very difficult family. So he was trying to wrestle with this coming from a very difficult family background. And this was in the this was in the 90s, and so we're in the era of boundaries. Boundaries, of course, is a was a an attempt to popularize uh this eye of this uh concept of differentiation, right? It's the boundary, it's the line between two people. Okay. And this guy um he misunderstood this as he was trying to grapple with how so much, so many times his family had come across the line. He was trying to get back from the line just for his own safety. And then, Lord willing, I think over time, I hope he got back up to the line to be able to relate to people really closely. But he misunderstood this and he sort of isolated himself from anybody else's viewpoint about him because he'd he'd really been abused. Yeah. And uh, and you could understand why he didn't feel safe to come up to the line. But there are pastors who were in that position. They don't feel safe to come up to the line, and so they they're not relationally close to other people, they're not in accountable relationships, there's not people in their life they can say anything to about what they're struggling with, and that is a real problem. The differentiated person is not isolated, they're right at the line in close relationship with people.

SPEAKER_02: 23:51

I think we say that again because I I really do want our listeners to hear that because I think you you blew past how big the reality of that truth is.

SPEAKER_03: 24:03

So the the differentiated person is not the isolated person. The differentiation in my mind is actually what enables you to have relationships because you're not in fear that you're gonna be swallowed up and you've self-sworn that I'm not gonna swallow someone else up, and so I'm gonna I'm going to honor the dignity of somebody else. And when you have two people that honor each other's dignity, they can be close. The person who misunderstands this and thinks that to be differentiated means that I'm that I'm far away, that I isolate. They get away from relationship, they're not in close relationship. Maybe if they're married, they're not even in close relationship. Much less they don't have people, accountable people around them who can speak into their life. We moved settings from yesterday where we were recording, because there was a another church worshiping at the the place that we're recording today, and just to my right on the bookshelf is a a book by a man that I went to seminary with um and actually preached at my ordination. And he I'm sorry, at my installation at the church church I served in in West Seattle, and late later became a heretic and then an unbeliever and divorced his wife.

SPEAKER_01: 25:15

Oh my absolutely heart-wrenching.

SPEAKER_03: 25:19

The reason was that he isolated himself and he did not let other people speak into his life, which is so vital because we see so little. Those of us who understand the doctrine of depravity should understand just how little we actually see and how much we need people to speak into our life, good things, gracious things, kind things, compassionate things. Remember the commands of the Lord are goodness to us, and we need people, we need to be right at the line and say, What do you see, Jared, in my life that needs to be because I need you, and that that only happens if we can get up to the line. The isolated person doesn't do that. That's not differentiated, right? The differentiated person is the one who actually can have a relationship, courage.

SPEAKER_02: 26:09

Again, yeah, courage. It requires courage to trust God that He holds my identity, He's the one who gives me my name, He's the one who is going to give me a rock that has my name on it that no one else knows, and He's the one who's going to accept me. Yep. He's the one who is going to make me acceptable and then call me acceptable, and then actually enact that acceptability.

SPEAKER_01: 26:36

And the resonance son. I I I don't want to understate this at all.

SPEAKER_02: 26:44

Most of the pastors that I have had the privilege of knowing have been on the vast majority of this side of the spectrum of not having the courage to walk openly the way that God has called them to. It is very hard for a pastor in a position of authority to walk humbly before his God with other men who can hold him accountable, to whom he opens himself up for rebuke, for correction, for investigation, to say, no, I am. I may have this title, but again, going back to uh episode two, God does not call pastors to be pastors or elders to be elders because they have received some special next level, I've leveled up anything. We are all broken vessels that God uses for his purpose. And if we won't do what he's called us to do, he'll find another broken vessel, and sometimes that broken vessel will look like a donkey. Right? God doesn't care. Yeah. He's gonna use what he's gonna use.

SPEAKER_00: 28:00

Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal podcast from Flourish Coaching. Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. We believe that there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawned. Jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy. If you have questions or a need, we'd love to hear from you. For more information, go to our website, flourishcoaching.org, or send an email to info at flourishcoaching.org. You can also connect with us on Facebook, X, and YouTube. We appreciate when you like, subscribe, rate, or review our show whenever you're listening. It can be hard for churches to ask for help, so when our clients tell us who referred them, we'll send a small gift to say thanks. A huge thank you to all our guests for making the time to share their stories with us. We are really blessed to have all these friends and partners. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal podcast was directed and produced by Jeremy Seferati in association with Flourish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called it. Now we're