Welcome And The Discernment Problem

SPEAKER_00 0:01

Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast. I'm Matt. I'm Jeremy. Community spiritual discernment cannot rest on vague spirituality or an appeal to personal impressions. It must withstand biblical scrutiny. But even sound theology can be misused when a church asks from idle curiosity, approaches God with a preferred answer, or uses spiritual language to control the result. In this episode, we'll ask what faithful discernment requires when the people seeking God may not yet be willing to obey.

Idle Curiosity And Double-Minded Prayer

SPEAKER_01 0:28

So you talk about this. One of the things that can happen when we are working in the discernment area is we can ask out of idle curiosity. I want you to talk about that a little bit, and I'd like you to help us, you know, maybe give an example of what asking for discernment, asking for the leading of the Holy Spirit, asking to hear God's voice together, right? What that looks like when all we're doing is asking out of passive curiosity.

SPEAKER_02 0:58

Yeah. So I think that we're in the church that I attend, the men's Bible study that I'm facilitating a couple of times and the preaching in the up in the pulpit is through James right now, which is fascinating because I think that this wisdom model I'm trying to talk about is from James, and that I want people to really get inside of that and dig into that and to see that as productive and helpful. We're just about to the section in James where we're saying that we ought to not just be hearers of the word, but doers. And I think that that happens too much where we hear something, but we have no intention of doing anything about it. We like the knowledge that we can gain, but we don't intend to do anything with it. That's kind of idle curiosity. Like we're gonna go talk to the Lord because it's the thing that we're supposed to do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Of course, we're supposed to pray. But it's performative, it's perfunctory, it's not genuine, and we don't intend to do something with it. And I think that James has something for this, also. He calls it double-minded. Jesus would call it uh hypocritical.

SPEAKER_01 2:13

And to be clear, this isn't just at the individual level. No, this is at the corporate level as well.

SPEAKER_02 2:18

Absolutely, right? I can do this as in my individual prayer life where I have no intention of actually listening, but I know I'm supposed to pray. Or as a group, you know, a couple of people or whatever, they're yeah, they're going along with the group and they're praying, but they're they're strategizing, they're planning. They are not holding it open-handed in the way that Mary held her life open-handed to the Lord, the way that Jesus held his life open-handed. The word that's been coined to talk about that, and I think it's a I think it's a good word and a helpful word, um, is indifference, which is typically a negative word, right? Yeah, you know, like I'm I'm indifferent about the Seahawks this year. It's kind of like that's a bad thing, right? Right, exactly. But under this definition, going in and just saying, Lord, thy will be done. I want your wisdom. I know mine's probably gonna be wrong. And so I go in indifferent to anything but the wisdom that God would give us as a group. And that is a very different thing. That's a very different kind of habit of heart and of dialogue and the way the group works.

Open-Handed Indifference In Acts 15

SPEAKER_02 3:30

It's what you see in Acts 15. And so this is possible for a group. I mean, that was a vital, vital issue with very strong sides. Sure. Yep. And they figured out how to do this, and they were so convinced that the solution that comes out of that meeting, nobody came in with. Nobody came in with that solution, and certainly the solution that comes out of the mouth of the most surprising individual, because James probably caused this problem, and the spirit worked in James, and he changed his mind in the conversation. And the group was so sure that the spirit at work that that's what they testified that it seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us, landing no greater burdens than these. That's 1528, I think. And so they went into that, you know, it's much dis debate and dissension, right? You know, it it it was a knockdown drag out, but not not unchristian in the sense that they disagreed, but bore the fruit of the spirit towards each other. And I think that that is something that we have not seen a lot of, where a disagreement happens in a group, but they still bear the fruit of the spirit to each other. Um, but that's what's to be sought for. And so that's a thing you're shooting for. I mean, that's that's what that's that's what I try and teach, if that makes sense.

SPEAKER_01 4:55

Are there particular areas or concepts, subjects, topics that are more at risk of being treated this way, being sought in a and simply in a curiosity vantage point?

SPEAKER_02 5:11

Yeah, it's a good question. Um I think there are a whole lot of them, actually. But I I think that the I'm even trying to figure out how to collect all of them together in my mind and and spit them out in a in a cohesive fashion.

Comfort Idols And Church Golden Calves

SPEAKER_02 5:30

I think that because comfort is the hidden idol of most Americans, right? That if this topic that we're considering, if the resolution, the decision that comes out of this topic has the possibility of making my life more uncomfortable, then I can be internally resistant to the conversation and to listening and to praying in a perfunctory way and not really being open to what the Lord might do. I think that that definitely happens. If I have held on to something too tightly, like if something is more important to me than it is to Jesus, and that can be a um, you know, I lead a nonprofit, right? And flourish does not do what we originally set out to do. We do something quite different. Uh we have sought to embody this as an organization. It is obvious to our staff and to our board that we have received the wisdom that comes from above and that we're doing exactly what the Lord called us to. But none of us knew, including me as the leader of it, that this is what the Lord was calling us to. We had no idea. And if as a leader of it, I had been bullheaded and said that no, it has to stay with what the original thing was. And, you know, one of the guys that helped start this is now with the Lord. If I was my posture, it was like, well, we need to honor his memory and not change it because we violate his memory if we do that. And we do that kind of thing in in nonprofits, in businesses, in churches, where we hold on to something longer than Jesus is. And I want to make a platform where people can have that kind of conversation that's not offensive. In the practitioner world, we talk about golden calves, that that's not just Israel that had golden calves, but churches do. And congregants and leaders just somehow have to be taught that. That somehow this way of doing ministry, this program, this emphasis, this um particular way that we go about this, um, that that might have been useful at a time. But missionaries stay flexible because the goal here is not to make it the the same for us or easiest for us. We don't exist for ourselves, we exist for them. We exist for those who don't yet know Christ. And so we, like the Apostle Paul, we become like Greeks to Greeks to reach them, or Jews to Jew, like Jews to reach them. So we bend to them. And that missionary flexibility to change, not become unfaithful, but but to remain intentional and flexible, adaptable is what churches lose sometimes. They get they get a hardening of the spiritual arteries, right? They become inflexible, and it becomes a problem.

SPEAKER_01 8:41

Matt,

Defining Discernment And Group Sanctification

SPEAKER_01 8:42

this is a defining moment. What is discernment?

SPEAKER_02 8:45

Discernment is the process of gaining from the Lord, listening to his invitation, and choosing to welcome the invitation and walk into the middle of it. Y'all lack wisdom, come to me. I give generously, without reproach. And the discernment is that you believe that through that process of prayer and conversation that you've received the wisdom that comes from above.

SPEAKER_01 9:11

You want to create a space for the conversation to occur for churches, church leaders, and the congregation to have a biblically based, uh scripturally attested to conversation about what is our specific idolatry in a way that is centered on and saturated in gospel grace.

SPEAKER_02 9:41

Yeah. Isn't that what Romans 1 to the end of Revelation 3, isn't that what the Lord's doing? Isn't he trying to point churches to the ways that they've gotten off the path and put them back on the path?

SPEAKER_01 9:55

Well, isn't justification and sanctification immediate?

SPEAKER_02 9:58

Yeah, no, no, no, absolutely not. It's interesting. One of our other board members led a portion of our denominational hierarchy for several years. One of the things that he coined in that time, this is Paul Hahn, is that church renewal is just group sanctification. That none of us as an individual, we've not arrived where individual sanctification is ongoing. We still need to be made into the image of Christ. Why would it surprise us when you put together a group of people who are all undergoing sanctification that them as a group would need to undergo sanctification?

SPEAKER_01 10:31

That's exactly what Jesus is saying through Paul in Ephesians. It's not primarily about a husband presenting to himself a wife pure and spotless and without blemish. That's Jesus presenting his church as his bride to himself.

SPEAKER_02 10:44

Yep, purifying his church. Yeah. Sanctifying his church. So that's what we're trying to get churches to do is to say, how do we still need to be sanctified? How have we gotten off the path? How are we not with Jesus program? How can we remain flexible uh as missionaries to our community? And that's what we're trying to platform that that kind of conversation is important. Um, but it also is one that takes the wisdom that comes from above.

unknown 11:11

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 11:12

So we so we have to discern it.

SPEAKER_01 11:13

So

How Discernment Gets Weaponized

SPEAKER_01 11:14

there's another objection that's possible here. We've talked about this already. A boat. Like I became Canadian there for a second. We've talked about this.

SPEAKER_02 11:21

That's right. Uh-uh.

SPEAKER_01 11:23

We'll be up to no boot in just a few minutes for you. We've talked about this already. Um, when we're talking about the spiritual discernment, we're not primarily talking about understanding what God is calling me as the individual to. We're talking about what God is calling us as a group to. And we've seen this go wrong many, many times in many ways. I know what the policy is that I want before I ever ask you to pray about it. Right. In fact, I have it written up here. I'm still gonna ask you to pray about it, and I'm not gonna like like yeah, I'm not gonna let you see the fact that I already have this document written up. And when I do show it to you, I'm gonna ask you to pray about it because of what I'm looking for is your validation, your verification that you agree that I'm right. Right. Okay. Of course. That's the that's the objection here. Hasn't uh this uh idea already led to very serious uh spiritual abuse, um leaning away from, departing from a commitment to biblical theology, biblical practice, or haven't we already seen where this practice leads to ultimately to heresy? Um it certainly can be done wrong.

SPEAKER_02 12:45

There's several different ways that it is done wrong, right? Right. So maybe I'll just highlight three. So I think that it's it's dangerous in the hand of a manipulative leader. Okay. Because if a manipulative leader gets everyone else to open their hands while keeping his closed, now he's actually consolidated power and influence. So yeah, it can be dangerous in the hands of a manipulative leader. I think it's also dangerous, it can be not just a leader that is the dominant in a group, it can be somebody else who's the dominant in a group that's not the leader. And it's dangerous because if they don't if even one person doesn't open their hand and be genuinely open to how the Lord would work in the group through conversation and prayer, then it's absolutely dangerous. I think that part of the way that this has gone bad in uh what we might call more liberal churches is that they they've not actually listened to the spirit, the Holy Spirit, who is the same spirit who speaks through the scriptures, and that any discerned direction should have biblical principles behind it. This is from the scriptures why we think this is wise, which is why I like to talk about that we're seeking wisdom. I think that that seeking the will of God it's too ambiguous, okay. Have we found it? Right? And you're not really sure if you found the will of God or not, because there's no definite sort of validation that says, ding, you found the will of God. Right. But if you search the scriptures together, you've tried to make it a decision, a discerned decision in light of the scriptures, and you can show to congregants, even if they're grumpy, hey, here's the scriptures that weighed in on this, and we discerned that this was the wisdom of the Lord related to this decision that we made, then at least it's defensible, even if people don't like it. If you've actually gone through it and you've weighed the scriptures. Where this has fallen down, I think, in our liberal churches, is they've not actually weighed the scriptures. They have imbibed a spirit, but it's been the spirit of the age, not the Holy Spirit. Because the Holy Spirit is not going to give wisdom that's not consonant with scripture. The Holy Spirit's going to give wisdom that's consonant with scripture. And that's so you can get off the way that way as well. Um can you think of more ways that this has gone wrong?

SPEAKER_01 15:18

The ones that stand out the most to me are the ones I've I've seen and experienced. So we can, you know, we just talked about you just talked about what's happened in liberal churches, and I think that that's that is uh very prescient. But there are two that stand out to me as sort of the big categories that most of the people that are listening to us right now will probably have experienced and will probably continue to experience until and unless there's a corporate agreement that this is something that requires a a constant vigilant uh pressing. And I think you've already touched about them or talked about them. The one is I think I have the answer. And the two is I know I have the answer. So on the one hand, I don't need to ask God, and on the other hand, I'm gonna ask God, quote unquote, but I already know what it is, and I'm just making sure that you're in line so that if I I can find out where the objections are and and nip them in the bud before they stop me from doing what I know needs to be done. Yeah. Yeah. Um in my life, there are many, many things that after the fact I say to myself, why didn't I stop and seek God's wisdom on this? On this decision, this issue, this problem. There are others where I look back and I say, I did seek God's wisdom and I still believe I missed what what he was saying to me. How did that happen and why did it happen? Right. And oftentimes, uh just you know, being vulnerable here, that comes down to pride, arrogance, or fear. Yep. Yep. You've

Measuring Fruit And Seeking Wisdom Together

SPEAKER_01 16:53

already talked about the disruptive will of God, which I think really requires us to to sit down and slow down and unpack. Um the one that uh you've already touched as well, I think is hugely prescient, is the fact of comfort. We're doing things we're largely in line with what scripture calls us to from a gospel perspective. Are we being effective? Well, sure, because we're still doing the right thing. Yeah, but are being are we being effective? Are lives being changed, our relationships being built? Is the gospel going and reaching this is something that you talk about, the people right around the church where God has called us, right?

SPEAKER_02 17:40

Yeah, well what are we what are we measuring? Are we measuring, you know, I've got the church that I have always wanted. Is that what we're measuring? We're measuring the things that Jesus is measuring because he tells you what he's measuring from Romans 1 until the end of Revelation 3. Jesus will tell you the things that he's measuring, he's measuring spiritual fruit. He's called us to bear much fruit, and that fruit is great commission fruit. It's people coming from unbelief to belief and being discipled so that they obey, and as they're going, they begin to make disciples, right? Who then are baptized and they are taught, and it's multiplication, right? And so that's what Jesus desires for the church, and it's what we ought to desire for the church too. But so many times churches get off the way and don't desire that.

SPEAKER_01 18:24

There's another objection here that I want to touch on briefly. Um you rightly said that there are four places in Acts, I believe 6, 11, 15, and 21. 6, 13, 15, and 20. There we go. Where you can point and say the process of community spiritual discernment is happening.

SPEAKER_02 18:43

Right.

SPEAKER_01 18:44

So here's the objection. Yes, Matt, but that's Acts. That's the apostolic age. The apostles were still with us. Why are you viewing that as normative and not just descriptive?

SPEAKER_02 18:55

Yeah. So that's why I think that the main exegesis for this comes out of James, right? So where this is for the churches, broadly construed. And so the Lord's invitation stands for us to, if y'all lack wisdom, come ask me. And so I think that that invitation for the Lord stands. Um, and that what we see in the book of Acts is the examples of people taking up the Lord on his on his invitation, and so they stand as models for us. James is the exhortation, James is the command, and Acts are the models of how those people at least lived out that command, that invitation to come.

SPEAKER_01 19:31

And Jesus is the archetype. Again, we have to go back to that. Jesus is the archetype of seeking the Lord, God's wisdom.

SPEAKER_02 19:38

Absolutely. Yep, and of living open-handedly. Yes, right, in a way that was obviously incredibly uncomfortable.

unknown 19:45

Right.

SPEAKER_01 19:45

I'm not going to Bethany. My friend is dead, but I'm not going. Right. Because God has doing something else. He has a purpose for me. He's communicated that to me. I'm in line with his spirit. I'm walking in obedience, and this is gonna hurt.

SPEAKER_02 20:04

I think too that that one stands out. I think the other one that stands out is you know, everybody's lined up to be healed, and and uh the disciples are kind of managing the line and they're waiting for Jesus to come back from his quiet time, and he comes back and he goes, I need to go to the next village and preach. Yeah, but there's Jesus and we but you know, I promised that you would. And he was about his father's business. Yep. And so

Disruptive Wisdom And Decisions Driven By Fear

SPEAKER_02 20:31

sometimes discerning the wisdom that comes from above will be disruptive. You imagine those letters being read up front by an elder in a church on a Sunday in the New Testament? Because that's what happened. That's what happened on a Sunday. An elder in that church, the pastor of that church, stood up and read those letters, and you know they had to be very disruptive and upset people. Because there were people, they were being confronted by the Lord. And so the fact that we hesitate to make a certain kind of decision. I had one of my uh mentors who's now with the Lord, um, we served on a board together, and uh he stopped a board meeting one time and he goes, Um, this was of a religious nonprofit. He said, Uh, gentlemen, it appears to me that we are about to make a decision out of fear. And I'm I'm not for that. I don't think we should ever make a decision out of fear. And he, I think, taught all of us something that day. Certainly taught me something. He was wise and mature, and he sensed what we were about to do, and he kept us from it. And you need disruptive, kindly, bearing the fruit of the spirit, disruptive people, because we're just little sheep.

The Greater Danger And Closing Resources

SPEAKER_01 21:54

Final question for this episode. Uh-huh. What is the greater danger that a congregation would A, not seek God's wisdom, or B, seek it and not follow it?

SPEAKER_02 22:04

Um, those are both incredibly dangerous. How's that for a non-answer answer? Um many times I think they're actually related. Uh-huh.

SPEAKER_01 22:14

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 22:15

So I think that we don't seek it because we don't intend to follow it. We have what we want. Church is comfortable for us. We're getting from it what we what we desired out of it. And so we're we're not asking because we don't want it to be different. And in fact, if somebody tried to tell us, we would get upset with them for disrupting the stasis. So I think that the one sort of leads to the other. Like if you're not interested in it, then you know, but I think sometimes people are drag kicking and screaming towards this, and it doesn't it obviously doesn't work because people are not anticipating it wholeheartedly. You know, so some people put up with this because they're supposed to, but they don't believe it. And they don't believe that it would be better for them. It is true that it would be.

SPEAKER_00 23:02

Even if the theology is sound, the process will fail if the people entering it lack the necessary character. In the next episode, we'll begin examining the kind of people a discerning community requires, starting with people who have been humbled by the gospel. Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flores Coaching. Flurst exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. We believe there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawn, Jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy. If you have questions or a need, we'd love to hear from you. For more information, go to our website, floorscoaching.org, or send an email to info at floorscoaching.org. You can also connect with us on Facebook, X, and YouTube. We appreciate when you like, subscribe, rate, or review our show wherever you're listening. It can be hard for churches to ask for help, so when our clients tell us who referred them, we'll send a small gift to say thanks. Thank you to Redeemer Anglican Church in Annapolis, Maryland for the use of their facilities to record this episode. We are humbled and grateful for your partnership. And special thanks to each of the guests who joined us this season. Flourish Coaching is proud to partner with and learn from all our colleagues where the spirit is being sought and followed. We are privileged to receive the gift of their time, experience, and expertise, and to share it to strengthen the body of Christ. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal Podcast was directed and produced by Jeremy Sefferati in association with Floorish Coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you. Bye for now.