The Church Renewal Podcast
The Church Renewal Podcast
The Jerusalem Council 🕊️
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One sentence from Acts 15 still stops me in my tracks: “It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.” That’s not a slogan. It’s the end of a hard, honest process where real leaders face a real dispute with massive consequences for church unity and the message of salvation by grace. We start in Antioch, where the argument over circumcision isn’t a side issue, it’s a direct challenge to what it means to be saved and welcomed into God’s family.
As we follow the Jerusalem Council, we watch a pattern emerge for spiritual discernment in community: engaged debate that doesn’t turn toxic, testimony that takes God’s work seriously, and the discipline of silence and listening when it’s time to hear one another. We also slow down at the surprising hinge point, James. Instead of “big footing” a decision, he models humility and a willingness to be shaped by the Holy Spirit, then anchors his judgment in Scripture. That mix of Spirit-led guidance and Bible-grounded clarity is exactly what many elder boards, leadership teams, and pastors are trying to recover today.
We also push the conversation into modern church leadership and organizational decision making. Discernment isn’t enough if we can’t communicate what we discerned. If we can’t show our work, we lose people we’re called to shepherd. We talk about trust as the “coin of the realm,” the difference between agreement and unanimity, and why transparency and vulnerability are often the missing ingredients when churches try to lead change faithfully.
If you want a practical framework for conflict resolution, biblical leadership, and Holy Spirit guided decision making, listen through and share it with a leader who’s carrying a tough call right now. Then subscribe, leave a review, and tell us: where does your team get stuck most, discerning or communicating?
"community Spiritual discernment" — Matt Bohling, Flourish Coaching
Rethinking Session Communication — Matt Bohling, Walt Coppersmith, Jon Price, and Robert Q. Benedict, Flourish Coaching
The Five Dysfunctions of a Team — Patrick Lencioni, The Table Group
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Connect with Jeremy to discuss podcasting.
Opening And Why Acts 15
SPEAKER_00Welcome to the Church Renewal Podcast.
SPEAKER_03I'm Jeremy.
SPEAKER_00Acts 15 gives us one of the Scripture's clearest pictures of community spiritual discernment. The church is facing a dispute about how Gentile believers enter the family of faith, and the disagreement reaches into the meaning of the gospel itself. In this episode, we'll follow the Jerusalem Council as the apostles and elders listen to testimony, weigh scripture, and seek a conclusion they can name together. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us.
SPEAKER_03Welcome back, listener, to today's episode. Church Renewal Podcast. We're going off script today.
SPEAKER_02The Holy Spirit Jeremy's got a little bit of charismatic. I don't know what I can say. Sorry, listen.
SPEAKER_03The Holy Spirit's leading here, and we're just along for the ride, buddy. Buckle up the seatbelt. Matt, we've we we've talked through a number of things. You said back, I think, in episode two, that the Apostle James, the brother of Jesus, his part in this story is particularly profound because of his role in this entire controversy. In the last episode, we went over the traits of the individual and the group of people who are engaged in spiritual discernment. We're gonna be in Acts chapter 15. And with that as the launching point, I'll give it to you. Take us
Antioch Dispute Over Circumcision
SPEAKER_03away. What's the background here? Where does Acts 15 fall between 14 and 16?
SPEAKER_02Yeah. 15.1. We are in Antioch of Syria, right? You see that in the end of 14 and uh verse 24. When they arrive in Antioch, they get together the church together, they have a testimony service, if you will.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02And they say there a while. They were basking in the work of God's grace in many pagan unbelievers' lives. And we open chapter 15 with a scene that's reminiscent a little bit of the gospels and when the Pharisees enter the stage. And in the Gospels, when the Pharisees enter the stage, you're supposed to go as an audience member, you're supposed to go boo, hiss boo, hiss boo. Exactly. Um, and you're meant to have a similar response in Acts at verse 15:1. But some men came down from Judea and were teaching the brothers, unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.
SPEAKER_03Wait a second. That seems to go contrary to what I've heard other places in scripture.
SPEAKER_02It it does, doesn't it, Jeremy? Does that seem a little dissonant, maybe? I feel like Paul may have had something to say. It's possible that Paul had something to say about this, right? So there's there's an interrelationship between Acts 15 and Galatians 2. So for the purposes of Acts 15, the sides couldn't be more stark. Yeah. And the reason that I point that out is that it often feels like in our churches that the sides on a particular issue couldn't be more stark.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02And in this case, it's as stark as you can get. Either you have to be circumcised to be saved, or you don't have to be circumcised to be saved. Right. But the strength of this statement should not be diminished unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved. And so they were effectually saying you had to become a Jew before you could become a Christian.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Okay. Yep. More than likely, these were James' disciples that had gone to Antioch with this message. You have to become a Jew to become a Christian.
SPEAKER_03But this is not coming out of like Acts 14. This is coming out of biblical tradition, early church fathers.
SPEAKER_02Correct. Church history would tell us that the men who came down from Judea were part of James Posse. They were his people. According to the tradition that we've received, James, the brother of Jesus, kept the law to the end of his life. And that's important to realize because it makes the later portions of this, I think, hit makes it pop appropriately for an audience that would not have been familiar with the context.
SPEAKER_03Right.
Healthy Disagreement Without Being Disagreeable
SPEAKER_02Right. So these brothers come down from Judea, verse one, um, verse two, after Paul and Barnabas had, I love the understatement here, um, no small dissension and debate with them. So this was a this was a knockdown drag out among Christians.
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And what I would say is that as we see how things progress further, I think this was disagreement without being disagreeable. This was disagreement while bearing the fruit of the spirit.
SPEAKER_03It hadn't led to the laying on of hands yet.
SPEAKER_02No. And I think that it was important enough to disagree. You know, we have the privilege with flourish of working with churches in all parts of the country. And different cultures in different parts of the country navigate conflict differently. There are subcultures of our country in the U.S. that are very conflict diverse.
SPEAKER_03Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02And so it feels unchristian to be in conflict.
SPEAKER_03When you say that, just to put a finer point on that, it feels to be unchrist-like. Yeah. Yeah. Like Jesus didn't have conflicts when he told his disciples, I'm not going out to see my mother and brothers because you're my family.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. And so we talked last season about differentiation, that often differentiation, which Jesus did all the time, the apostle Paul did all the time, frequently induces conflict because you're not bowing to the pressures that other people are putting on you.
SPEAKER_03Right.
SPEAKER_02You're standing up to the pressures and holding true to your values. This passage shows us that it is not unchristian to disagree. In fact, it might be very Christian to disagree. I might honor the Lord to disagree, since Jesus himself disagreed with those around him. And we see his apostles here disagreeing with those who were teaching something that eventually the Holy Spirit will show as the passage goes on, was aberrant. After there's no small tension debate, what happens is Paul Barnabas and some of the others were appointed to go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders about this question. So they convened a meeting of the body to decide this. This was uh we called the Jerusalem Council, and so they were gathered together to um formulate an accurate orthodox doctrinal statement. Okay, where there had been disagreement before to say, here's the binding statement that defines orthodoxy. They got to Jerusalem, verse 4, they're welcomed, they talk about what God's done through them, verse 5, but some who belong to the party of the Pharisees. Yes. So these were converted Pharisees, so they're Christians, but they had come through Judaism to get there. They rise up and they say it's necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses.
SPEAKER_03Now we have to pause here and say, right or wrong, these guys were being genuine.
SPEAKER_02Yes. They believed that it ought to be imposed on everybody that it wasn't voluntary.
SPEAKER_03This is just keeping with orthodoxy.
SPEAKER_02They assumed a great deal of continuity between the old covenant and the new covenant instead of a degree of discontinuity.
Debate That Leads To Wisdom
SPEAKER_02So, verse six, the apostles and others, they gather together to consider this matter, and after there had been much debate.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02So, second instance of this. So, debate is not bad. We'll see that it ought to be engaged, passionate, productive dialogue. Whatever you have to discuss is not as vital as what was discussed on this day. But what you have to discuss is vital. If you have determined as a group together, whether this is you're running a business or a nonprofit or a church team or an elder board or session, if you've determined that we have come upon a matter that needs to be discerned, it ought to be debated. Everybody's got to put their pieces on the table. It's needed because the Holy Spirit reveals the wisdom that comes from above in the midst of debate. Say it again. The Holy Spirit reveals the wisdom from above. The Lord says, James 1, 5, if y'all lack wisdom, ask. And when you've asked, and the Lord answers, you get the wisdom that comes from above.
SPEAKER_03So from a continuity point of view, we are no longer at Sinai, right? Where Moses is going up on our behalf and God gives him the word, and he comes down and stands us our intermediary.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And we receive from the delivers the word to us. Right.
SPEAKER_01Yeah.
SPEAKER_03Jesus has now completed the law.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03He's satisfied the law.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03He's gone. And he said, I will send you the comforter, and he will lead you into all truth.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03Not a here's the one person, here's the representative.
SPEAKER_02But the spirit.
SPEAKER_03But the spirit who's going to speak to all of you.
SPEAKER_02To all of you.
SPEAKER_03And lead you into truth.
SPEAKER_02Yep. And I would submit that that leading you into the truth is that is that movement from James 1 to James 3. Y'all lack wisdom. Reach out to me. I give generously without reproach. And when the Lord gives it, it's the wisdom that comes from above and all of those beautiful traits from James 3.
SPEAKER_03In business terms, we're flattening the organization. In popular terms, we are democratizing Christianity.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Absolutely. We're saying there's not a bishop through whom this is delivered, but it's done in community. It's community spiritual discernment, right?
SPEAKER_03It's what they were doing here. Which then draws to that first point of engagement.
SPEAKER_02Yep.
SPEAKER_03If we're not engaged together, this project fails.
SPEAKER_02Yep, exactly. So you need engaged, passionate, productive dialogue. Okay. And we'll talk about how that's possible. For them, it was possible. They got together, verse six, and they consider it, and there's much debate. Peter
Testimony And The Discipline Of Listening
SPEAKER_02stands up and talks about his testimony and reaching out to the Gentiles and the Holy Spirit making no distinction between people in terms of seeing them saved. And he, you know, is pretty strong. Why are you putting God to the test? He makes a pretty strong argument that this is by grace. By verse 12, the assembly fell silent and they listened. And that's very important. They listened to Barnabas and Paul. Part of the challenge, and we'll talk about this in biblical teamwork in the inverse, is that we don't actually end up listening to each other. Really listening, listening to hear. So this group listens and they hear Paul and Barnabas' testimony about what God had been doing through the gent among the Gentiles. And verse 13 is the beginning of the turning point.
James Changes Course With Humility
SPEAKER_02After they finished speaking, James replied. Now, church history tells us that these peeps that came down from Judea saying this, they were of James. These were his he had discipled these guys.
SPEAKER_03Okay.
SPEAKER_02They followed him, they heard what he said, and then they went and did it. And James stands up and he talks about the ministry that's gone out to the Gentiles. He quotes some scripture. And then you get down to verse 19, and the Lord has worked. He says, Therefore, my judgment is that we should not trouble those of the Gentiles who turn to God. This is a very, very surprising statement coming from James's mouth. The one who taught these men who'd come down from Judea that they must be circumcised, these are peeps. In the midst of this, no small dis debate and a dissension, right? Through this listening to each other, the Holy Spirit worked. And so where they end up is James says this and it and it carries the day. It carried the ring of truth for the gathered group.
SPEAKER_03You're saying this was not James as the leader in the group, big footing and saying, okay, I've decided. Here's my judgment.
SPEAKER_02And I think that we know that because of what they wrote. That that's not how the way he thought about himself.
SPEAKER_03Did the church in Jerusalem think of him in that way at that time?
SPEAKER_02They might have, but I think that they were so obviously directed by the Holy Spirit as they went through and that's testified to time and again, that I think that they were used to. I mean, Paul can write to the Romans keeping step with the Spirit, right? So so this the Spirit's doing something. How do we seek the wisdom from above, even if it has fallen out of our usual habit? It was a habit of theirs. It's why in Acts 6 they seek the Lord about the deacons. It's why in Acts 13 they seek the Lord about what they should do for the extension of the gospel. And that means send Paul and Barnabas out. And then Acts 20, should Paul go to Jerusalem and they seek together. And even knowing what's going to happen, they discern that Paul should go. Their anticipation is the spirit was at work in the world, and they needed to figure out how to not be out of step. So they prayed and they sought the wisdom that came from above. And I think this shows us that James was doing the same thing, that he was convincible.
SPEAKER_03Matt, this is a defining moment. What do you mean by convincible?
SPEAKER_02Um, I was recently doing a wedding, actually had the privilege of performing my niece's wedding.
SPEAKER_03Nice.
SPEAKER_02And she wanted me to read in her wedding ceremony part of First Corinthians 13. And it was interesting, but in 1 Corinthians 13, where it talks about love, remember the group gathered for discernment. We've already said that you're to love your neighbor around the table. So what does that love look like? Love is patient and kind. Love does not envy or boast, it is not arrogant or rude, it does not insist on its own way. It is not irritable or resentful, does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things. It stood out to me that love does not insist on its own way. And James here does not insist on his own way. It's very, very fascinating. That's what we see. And I think that that is a major feature that's needed in people that are going to do community spiritual discernment, that they submit their own way to the Lord. And I think the evidence here is that James was convincible. He didn't insist on his own way. He was willing to be shaped by the Spirit. He was willing to be previously wrong. That takes a lot of humility to admit I was previously wrong. That was not wise or good. Now that we have the wisdom that comes from above, we can see, wow, that way I was thinking it was not good. It did not honor the Lord. This is the wisdom from above, so we're going forward with it.
SPEAKER_03You've got Peter, Paul, Barnabas, James, and others. We don't know which of the other disciples are in the room, right? So presumably it's going to be everyone who's in the area, whose name we would have known, and more. John Mark's likely there, if Peter's there, right. Um Peter certainly had a gravitas, certainly had a standing within the community. Sure. Paul also, after having come and presented himself in Jerusalem, uh there was a weight to what Paul said. There was a weight to what Barnabas said. And we see this shift. And a weight to what James said, obviously. Yes. Yeah and we see this shift not necessarily away from Peter, but we see a shift away from a single source of authority other than the spirit. Other than the spirit, and a willingness of Christ's people to stop, look, listen, and obey. Yeah. In humility. So Peter doesn't stand up and say, well, this is what it is, because obviously I had this vision, and you you remember Cornelius, he's now with us, and we didn't do these things, and God showed me, and I had to eat this pork in my in my dream, the shellfish, and it was delicious. And I praise the Lord for the pork and the shrimp. I love the crab here in Maryland. Amen. Not neither did Paul. And it was like, okay, well, I was the last one to see Jesus alive, and this is what he told me. Right. And by the way, here are the miracles he's done.
SPEAKER_02It's it is interesting that we don't have other than testimony, but the uh the main speaker here that feels like it's that we're heard about is is James. Which again is incredibly surprising because he changed positions in the middle of the meeting.
SPEAKER_03And it's being recorded by Luke, the not necessarily disciple of Paul, right, but certainly the companion of Paul, who, if he's going if there's going to be some kind of accurate account to Theophilus about what happened, right?
SPEAKER_02Yeah.
SPEAKER_03It's incredible.
SPEAKER_02It is. It's and we're we have to work at it a little bit to actually see the scene as it was and and see all the effects.
SPEAKER_03And to me, take it out of our our Western European culture too. Yep. And take it out of our cultural. It's not a boardroom. It's not a you and I talking to each other like this. It's much more what it sounds like when you go to a marketplace in the Near East today.
SPEAKER_02Right. Much more freewheeling, I would say, probably, yeah, maybe more emotion than here.
SPEAKER_03More like the House of Parliament, if you look over in England.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Yeah, where they still boo and hiss. And yeah, which is which is interesting. Uh, it's a participatory theater, right? Um, that's a good
“Good To The Holy Spirit” Decision
SPEAKER_02way to put it. Um, okay. So verse 22, it seemed good to the apostles and elders of the whole church to choose men and to send them along with Paul and Barnabas and a letter. So they write a letter, and this is the declaratory statement of the wisdom that comes from above that is now binding on the churches. It's why all of you who are listeners, who are Gentiles, did not have to be circumcised. You are the fruit of this council, of this time of community spiritual discernment, and of this um letter. You're the fruit of that. And that's incredibly significant. The ramifications of them doing this well are significant upon you if you're in Christianity and you recognize that it's by grace only. So they write this letter, they recount the history, they tell them how they came together, they came to one accord, which is very interesting, very diverse perspectives. Nobody came in with that solution. The Holy Spirit gave the solution in the moment, and everybody said, That's it. They came to one accord. They believed that they'd received the wisdom that came from above. They say, Hey, we've sent these guys and they're coming to you so that you hear not just the letter, but in person. You get to verse 28, and they say, For it has seemed good to the Holy Spirit and to us to lay on you no greater burdens than these requirements. It seemed good to the Holy Spirit. As far as I know, this is the only place in the scripture that this particular formulation of language is found. Uh, we have, you know, Romans 12, the maturing disciple, the living sacrifice, is able to sort of evaluate their life and see the good, perfect, acceptable will of God, right? Because they they're understanding and applying the gospel. And this is them basically trying to say, we believe that the Spirit gave us the wisdom that came from above. And so we're giving it to you.
Show Your Work When You Lead Change
SPEAKER_02If your group, whether it's a group of business leaders or a nonprofit leading up staff or a board or a leadership team in a church, a session, an elder board, whatever, if you do this well and you're evaluating scripture and your situation, and you can show your work to your people and you discern the wisdom that comes from above, and you still need to communicate well. But I think you can go out and you can say, here's the path that the Lord took us on to get there. We realize it might upset you if we admit that our church has lost its focus on the Great Commission locally. And your great concern is that we keep supporting foreign missionaries. But by us admitting that we have neglected the Great Commission locally, yes, some of that money is no longer gonna go to foreign missionaries. It's gonna go here because there are lots of pagans here. And that may upset you. And we realize that. But we're telling you that the model we see in the scriptures is Jerusalem, Judea, Samaria to the ends of the earth. We're gonna do stuff in our zip code and support things in our zip code as well as our region, our state, our country, and the world. And not just support foreign missions. Very common challenge. In old line churches, yep, including many in my own denomination. Yep. But that's defensible scripturally. If you discern that, that is defensible, and people might still be upset. But you can show them, here's how we got there. The challenge is when you try and deliver a decision to a congregation that was not discerned, that does not have scriptural rooting, and that you can't show your work. And if you can't show your work to your congregants and they can't go, hmm, I can see how you got there. I might not have gotten there if you hadn't told me all of that, but I get it. Now you're giving congregants a chance to also get in step with the spirit. Yep. Versus just making a decision and communicating and not thinking that you need to take people on the journey. This is um something that we're working on at Flourish that helped churches not just discern well, that's the theme of community spiritual discernment, but also then to take what they've discerned and to communicate well because both are important. Uh, we had a church that we worked with this year where they had spent two years discerning something. And they actually had done a really, really good job discerning the time they took and the study that they did and the thought they put into it, they really did a good job discerning. And it was entirely defensible. Even though it was a change in their church, and they could show their work and ask people, hey, come along with the journey or whatever. Unfortunately, they didn't choose to do that. They chose to write a letter and read it in the last 10 minutes of an adult Sunday school class before everybody went into worship.
SPEAKER_03Wow. That's a good way to cause conflict.
SPEAKER_02They did discover that, by the way.
SPEAKER_03I bet they did.
SPEAKER_02And the thing that they spent two years discerning, they ended up pulling back after a week because of all the blowback. So I'm not saying it you must merely discern. You must discern, and then it's once you've discerned, you still have to communicate well. It's exactly what you see in Acts 15. They discerned and then they communicated well. Whether you lead a business or a nonprofit or staff or a board, uh, whether you're a pastor, whether you're a member of an elder board or church team doing something that you've got to discern, you have got to think almost as much about the communication as the discerning. And they clearly did. So you even have that modeled in Acts 15. They thought about, okay, this is disruptive. How do we do this well?
SPEAKER_03Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So that it's effective.
SPEAKER_03There's two strings I want to pull on here. One is just how disruptive this is, because what you're talking about is this group of people going back and essentially undermining, undoing, clarifying almost 2,000 years of religious rites.
SPEAKER_02Yep. Well, and I think until Jesus' resurrection, they were right. Until the inauguration of the new covenant, if you were converted to Judaism as a Gentile, you would undergo Jewish rites, which include for men circumcision and washing and teaching and all that kind of stuff. So they were right, they just didn't recognize that the new covenant had been inaugurated. That which was required in the old covenant was no longer required, right? You you see the same pain point in Hebrews. They're being called back to old covenantal things, and the writer of the Hebrews is trying to correct them and say, no, Jesus is better. You don't have to go back to these things. 2,000 years of history must have been hard to shake. It must have been really weird. What? Our kids don't have to be circumcised. It must have been very difficult for it to have changed, and they didn't grasp how significantly it had changed by Jesus' coming.
SPEAKER_03Which means they missed an opportunity to engage in discernment prior to the conflict arising. They could have. I mean, theoretically, it was certainly there. The opportunity was there.
SPEAKER_02Sure. And you can even have seen as a tension point with the leaders. You see it in Galatians 2 that it's still a tension point where Peter is really trying to figure out oh, do I live by the old rules? Do I insist on the new rules? Um, you know, he's trying to figure out should I be differentiated and that's going to be disruptive, or should I go along to get along? And so he goes along. You know, we have the recounting in Galatians 2 that Paul confronts Peter and says, dude, you just can't do that because your actions violate the message. And you can't violate the message. The message is it's by grace, and God welcomes everybody, whether they're Jew or Gentile, based on his grace, not based on whether they Let me ask you a question here.
SPEAKER_03We've been talking about community spiritual discernment, and certainly the Jerusalem Council took place within the limits of a community, but not within the broader limits of the community. Right.
SPEAKER_02They were the appointed leaders over the community.
SPEAKER_03What why do you think it is? And and how is that the same, different, notable from what?
SPEAKER_02Yeah, I mean, I think that we um so here's the things that are the same. We don't have apostles any longer. And it is interesting that these apostles, in writing the letter, do not hang this decision on James. They don't hang this around Paul's neck or Peter's neck. They say it seemed good to the Holy Spirit. I
Reading Acts 15 As Modern Leaders
SPEAKER_02think that's very significant. They believed that they had received the wisdom that comes from above, though it came out of James's mouth. They did not attribute it to James. They did not say we're obeying James. They said we're we're trying to be in submission to the Holy Spirit. And that's the same spirit that we're called to keep in step with, to be filled with all the things that are binding on every New Testament believer, even outside of the apostolic era. We're still called to all of those things. The continuity for us, even outside of the apostolic era, is the invitation in James 1, is still there. Y'all lack wisdom. Come to the Lord. He gives generously without reproach. And what we get when we ask is the wisdom that comes from above and all those beautiful traits about it that mark it. I think that the the more important marker point for this is this is after the spirit's poured out on the whole church. So the marker point is not that the apostolic era was still open, it's that this is the era, the same era that we live in, where the spirit's been poured out in the church in fullness. And so cessationists and non-cessationists might differ about what that pouring out of the spirit means, sure, but it it can't mean less than that we can receive by the spirit the wisdom that comes from above.
SPEAKER_03So if we look at this through contemporary eyes, we can look back on this, and someone might make the argument. Um, of course, the dissension, there was no more dissension after James said this. Clearly, he changed his mind, and he's such a big, powerful, you know, loved figure that people are loyal to. That once he said this, even if they disagreed, they just got in line because that's the nature of those who are oppressed. Is there anything in the text specifically that you can point to and say, yeah, the the idea of the marginalized oppressed voice being silenced?
SPEAKER_02Um there is nothing in this text that points to that at all. What this text evidences is that everyone believed that the spirit had worked. That's what this text evidence is. And that the spirit actually kept working. Because remember, part of the the sway of the conversation was how the spirit had been working through the preaching of the gospel among the Gentiles. So if we were to more accurately recognize, for example, this is one of the virtues of my friendship with Sam Granada, he would say that the conversation that you and I today, Jeremy, have had, that the spirit has been at work among us, that the spirit had designs for both of our growth and sanctification that were designed to happen today in the midst of this conversation that would be public at some point. And I think that is just marvelous that the spirit is that kind of active in our lives as individuals, in our families, in our marriages. Even wondering how I can pray for the spirit to be active in my unbelieving neighbor? Like what is the Lord doing in the life of my unbelieving neighbor that would give me a door to walk the gospel through? And having this anticipation that the spirit is at work everywhere. And my job is to, in a sense, figure out how are you at work? Then that at work is going to be faithful to the scripture because the scripture is the same scripture that the spirit inspired. So this, you know, someone being led by the spirit is going to say, Well, you know, I should um, I should have four wives, or um, I should I I should unrepentantly um be sleeping with my boyfriend before marriage, because the spirit is not going to speak a different word than what's in the Bible, because it's the spirit that inspired the Bible.
SPEAKER_03Pro tip: if someone is saying, Did God really say it won't really kill you? Maybe check their work.
SPEAKER_02Maybe, maybe check their work, right? Yeah, which is why part of discerning is have we considered the relevant scriptures? It it's fascinating that James in his summary quotes the Bible. His mind is taken back to Amos and Isaiah. As he's interpreting the spirit's work among the Gentiles, his mind is pushed back and he goes, Oh, that Torah that I memorized, it has come true in our time. And the change has come. That means that it's different. And so I better be different because it's it's happened, it's changed. The promise to Abraham is now coming true. The promised savior has come because now the gospel is sort of blown out among all the Gentiles, and it's not just the line through the Jews any longer.
SPEAKER_03I appreciate you answering that objection. Um, I look at that objection in particular and I say, the evidence of scripture is that there was dissension, there was argumentation. Before before. Before, yes, but not after. But not after, which means something changed, and to suggest, well, what changed is being papered over by the author because he's the one in charge of the history and trying to support hierarchies of power and those who had something different to say, we're just written out or we're quiet because you have to make that argument from a whole lot of silence.
SPEAKER_02Right. Exactly. Pat Linchroni says in Five Dysunction of a Team that a reasonable person can go along with a group decision that wasn't their first thought, if they've been heard and their viewpoint has been seriously considered. Right. After hearing all of it, then go, oh no, I can go with that. I I can see the wisdom of that. Even if it was not their original viewpoint, a reasonable person can do that. Um, and the stakes, of course, in the marketplace are way lower, right, than they are in the church. Sure. The lives of people are not on the line in the marketplace, generally speaking. Um, I still pray every time I uh plane takes off that that the mechanic has treated it as though uh it was his family that was flying next. So yeah, I we don't see that um, you know, oppression of viewpoint here at all. What we see is people convinced that the spirit worked.
SPEAKER_03I I I think that is huge. Well, that's why I'm pressing on this. Yeah. What we see is a there were multiple perspectives that were divergent, yep, contrary divergent. Yep. And through it there was one perspective that was agreed to according to this unanimously. Now I gotta ask that question. If
Agreement Versus Unanimity And Trust
SPEAKER_03it weren't unanimous, would it still be successful CSD?
SPEAKER_02I think so, because I think that people's uh perspectives can be very strong, their value systems and the way that they value different perspectives can vary greatly. Uh people's degree of willingness to know their own emotions and why they're attached to a certain viewpoint varies. So people's emotional maturity varies as to why they're so attached to a certain viewpoint. And I think that people can distinguish with good conversation the difference between preference and principle. You know, the person who's saying, brothers and sisters, we are going to violate a tenet of scripture if we do this. That person must be heard. We must open our Bibles at that point and listen to that brother or sister. But the brother or sister that says, This is really not my preference, but I see the wisdom of it. You can move forward with people who acknowledge that something may be wise but not their preference.
SPEAKER_03So you already said in in an earlier episode that the goal of community spiritual discernment is not a decision, it's to gain wisdom. It's gonna lead you to a decision, like you're gonna do something.
SPEAKER_02Absolutely, right? But it's it's to get wisdom first, and then based on the wisdom, make the decision.
SPEAKER_03And now you're saying as well, sort of flesh this out a little bit, that agreement is the goal, not unanimity.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. So while it's ideal that you end up in one accord, I think you can go forward with I can see that this is wise. Um, it's not my first choice, but I see that it is wise, and I can 100% support it.
SPEAKER_03Which leads us back to a concept from last season and the season before that Dr. Quick brought in. Trust is the coin of the realm.
SPEAKER_02Trust is the coin of the realm. So and that and not trust that all of you are wise. Correct. But trust that the Lord, uh, as we have sought him, as we've sought to live according to biblical principles, as we have sought the wisdom that comes from above, and that he is given that because he gives it generously without reproach, that we're trusting the Lord that even if this isn't my preference, that he's with us and he's going to take care of us. We've sought his wisdom.
SPEAKER_03We trust we have welcomed and sought his wisdom along with me, and I've done it genuinely.
SPEAKER_02Yep. And you've done it genuinely. And hearing, I trust the wisdom of the group.
SPEAKER_03Yep.
SPEAKER_02As the spirits worked. That's magic for someone to be able to say that. And to know that on this particular thing that we've discerned, I might be the one that's trusting the Lord, that he's worked through the group. But the next time, it's you who have to trust the Lord. And then the next time it's this guy or gal over here that has to trust that the Lord has worked.
SPEAKER_03The thought
Transparency And Vulnerability In Leadership
SPEAKER_03that has been reverberating in my mind as we've been talking here is, and I don't think we've talked about here on this podcast. I have talked about it elsewhere. Is the distinction between transparency and vulnerability.
SPEAKER_02How do you distinguish those two?
SPEAKER_03Transparency, I'll let you see what happened. Vulnerability, I'm exposed in what I show you what happened. I I put myself under that microscope for you. I don't want to see what what took place. Yeah. And what we have here is a transparency and a vulnerability. And vulnerability is what I believe the gospel humility frees us too.
SPEAKER_01Yes.
SPEAKER_03And that's what you know, again, going back to trust, vulnerability demonstrates my willingness to entrust myself to God by trusting you.
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03And our walking together in openness where you can check my work, where I tell you this is what I thought, this is what changed my mind, this is what I think now. And I recognize I may not be right, but I believe God is leading this way. I believe that He's spoken to us. I believe He's He's led us to this wisdom through the work of the Holy Spirit as we've sought him. And I'm going to follow him because we're continuing to listen. Yep.
SPEAKER_02And when you do that kind of thing with congregants that also want to follow the Lord, hopefully their reaction is, wow. The way they went about that was way different than I thought. Yep. And maybe I'm the one that needs to return to my prayer closet and inspect whether my preference is what I'm expecting. Instead of seeking with my elders the wisdom that comes from above that might be really different than what I'm thinking right now. Am I really open to really different than what I'm thinking right now? And it can lead a whole congregation actually to greater maturity.
SPEAKER_03And I'm grateful that in my experience in various churches, I've seen examples of both of these. But I've seen more the example of humility that comes in with the pieces, is willing to put the pieces out there.
SPEAKER_02Right.
SPEAKER_03And then let the spirit show us what the picture is supposed to be. And I honor the people who have led in that way. Fallen, flawed, absolutely. But faithful. But faithful.
Next Episode Habits And How To Connect
SPEAKER_03And that, you know, so that's that brings us to the end of this episode, which is, you know, probably one movie attending. But it tees us up for the next episode, where when we come back, we're going to talk about what the habits are of these people that we're discussing right here at the end of this conversation. What are the habits that they have as individuals that lay the groundwork for them to be able to come together as a group and successfully engage in CSD?
SPEAKER_01Yep.
SPEAKER_03And we'll see you guys in the next part two.
SPEAKER_00The Jerusalem Council did not reach clarity by accident. The people in that room bought habits of prayer, preparation, listening, and submission to make faithful discernment possible. In the next episode, we'll examine the personal and communal habits that cultivate the discernment. Thanks for listening to the Church Renewal Podcast from Flourish Coaching. Flourish exists to set ministry leaders free to be effective wherever God has called them. We believe there's only one fully sufficient reason that this day dawned, Jesus is still gathering his people and he's using his church to do it. When pastors or churches feel stuck, our team of coaches refresh their hope in the gospel and help them clarify their strategy. If you have questions or a need, we'd love to hear from you. For more information, go to our website, floorscoaching.org, or send an email to info at floorscoaching.org. You can also connect with us on Facebook, X, and YouTube. We appreciate when you like, subscribe, rate, or review our show wherever you're listening. It can be hard for churches to ask for help, so when our clients tell us who referred them, we'll send a small gift to say thanks. Thank you to Redeemer Anglican Church in Annapolis, Maryland, for the use of their facilities to record this episode. We are humbled and grateful for your partnership. All music for this show has been licensed and was composed and created by artists. The Church Renewal Podcast was directed and produced by Jeremy Sefferati in association with flourish coaching, with the goal of equipping and encouraging your church to flourish wherever God has called you. Bye for now.